Chronic Logic

Zatikon => Units => Topic started by: Lumen on May 05, 2009, 02:50:36 PM

Title: Archangel
Post by: Lumen on May 05, 2009, 02:50:36 PM
The archangel is a very intriguing unit, but for 550 points, I don't think it really makes the cut.

As a 550-pt unit, the archangel competes with the wyrms for utility.  The archangel is a basic attack unit whose presence does not fundamentally alter the course of how the game is played, though arguably it's one of those units that requires a non-lethal means of removal, like martyrs, heretics, possessed, berserkers sometimes, paladins sometimes, etc.  Currently, all the wyrms have specific roles:

Dracolich:  The dracolich is three things - a powerful attacker (but defensive because of low range without levitation), a force multiplier because of the risen, and a suppression unit due to the -1 command thing.  As a unit that gives yet more units, the dracolich fairs well with any unit that benefits from your creatures dying.  Since those new units tend to be among the enemies to begin with, dracoliches also benefit greatly from assassins to replace the new risen.  The best dracolich armies try to take advantage of multiple of the dracolich's roles.

Dragon:  The dragon has one specialty - rapid dominance.  Dragons don't heal, they are not able to enhance your army by special abilities, much less make it grow.  All dragons are are tough enough to take a bit of an initial punch and fast and strong enough to very quickly reach and destroy the enemy.  They're the most offensive unit in the entirety of Zatikon.  Dragons have two actions and they fly 3 spaces.  This gives them an effective range of 6 with fireball, or they can completely erase something within 4 of their position.  The best dragon armies move too fast to allow the opponent to set up a combo, which is good because the dragon army doesn't stand up to attrition.

Hydra:  The hydra is tough enough to get by, but its main advantages are that it's the cream of the crop for unit summoners and that it will DESTROY anything left within 3, and can hardly be blocked in this.  Serpents make your army bigger and make hydras difficult to assault except from extreme range.  The best hydra armies either enhance the somewhat lesser toughness of the unit or take advantage of the waves of chaff units it can create (or both--mourners).

Feathered Serpent:  Feathered Serpents are 550 points of army enhancement.  -1 to enemy damage makes even those armor 2 units tougher and healing everything at the end of your turn can combine with that to make opponents very frustrated.  Finally, on top of all THAT resilience, you turn the first loss every turn as a delay instead.  Army sustaining powers par excellance make this unit a major, MAJOR target for any enemy, and yet it can do all of its stuff from the back row and can fly to get away from enemies.

Now, getting back to the Archangel, it is fundamentally an attacking unit.  To be effective, it must reach the enemy and then attack in melee to be of use.  Two actions used for attacking at power 5 is pretty much how it works, since auto-killing murderers isn't quite so useful when you sunk more than half of your army into this one unit... any losses at all really hurt you.  The archangel is range 4, so it cannot rush an opponent fast enough to prevent them from deploying and just starting their combinations, like the dragon can.  Its big special ability is that it doesn't die.  Like ghosts, the archangel returns to the castle whenever it's killed.  Of course, with a deploy cost of 5, that's a serious delay for your army, even if it's not a permanent loss.  Add onto that the fact that it has inferior range to the other primarily-attacking unit at 550 points and killing an archangel results in the archangel army losing several turns with it.  Oh, and as a new unit each time, the archangel wasn't around to witness its own murder, so murderers on the board are cleared and the killing unit isn't susceptible as a murderer when the angel comes back for revenge.

Let's talk comparisons.  The archangel is range 4 and can lay out two power 5 hits.  Very good, just not worth 550 points.  For comparison, a flying werewolf is also range 4 and lays out two power 6 hits, and it has the same resilience (minus the not-dying ability).  You can have 6 of these in an army... I suppose my big point is that for an army's power to be so concentrated into one unit, that unit needs to be able to pressure the enemy.

The archangel's inherent defensiveness with significant time and effort before it returns means that it fails to pressure the enemy as much as a 550-point unit needs to.  Add on the fact that like many units, it can be completely lost to a non-lethal take-down, such as from a witch, geomancer, priest, love potion, summoner, possessed, druid, rogue, enchanter, or magus, and as a flying unit it's vulnerable to shamen and guardian units, and you have anything but assurance that the 550 points is being useful.

How about some possible solutions?  I have two possible solutions to think of.  First, if the unit really is intended to be the sort of slow and steady defensive advance unit that it seems to be portraying, then make sure that its able to come back... or at least increase those chances.  Make the archangel immune to spells (some sort of divine ward or something).  I don't like that option quite so much because just negating other units draws away from the tactical choices of the game, making army construction more valuable than smart decision-making.

The second option is to make the archangel slightly more aggressive and to give it some semblance of army-preservation.  Give the archangel the ability to move to an allied unit's current position and bounce that unit back to the castle.  This enhances the archangel's ability to get into the fight and gives it the notion of being a guardian angel for your troops.  Using this ability would preclude the ability to fly for the turn, as this is movement.  Alternatively, for more of a command cost, you could allow the archangel to deploy as an assassin, doing the same thing, but requiring that the enemy kill it before it can protect another unit (and if they don't kill it, then there's an archangel running wild among their troops).  The deploy cost of 5 would help to keep this one reasonable, though I'm not sure it's enough of a boost to make up for the angel's deficiencies.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: zatikon on May 05, 2009, 03:19:22 PM
I agree that its not worth 550 yet.

I'm presently testing it at 500 with a 3 deploy cost.  The "slay sinners" ability has more to do with theme, and I might change it out for something more useful.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Kran on May 05, 2009, 08:38:32 PM
I have a completely diferent opine about it. I think it worth its 550 pricetag.The archangel great deficience is againt spells, expecially the geomancer / witch, what is not good. Againt any army without these things its pretty good. I agree that it cant make much pressure, but if combinated with other units that can impeace the enemy advance, its very playable. It can simple make a suicide attack againt 2 units, for example, try do defend with the other troops againt the enemy rush... then deploy it again. If you have at least 8 commands per turn, for sure. Or a strategist. I hope change the deploy cost is not needed. Its immortal, at least let it be hard to re-deploy. I would suggest it to have an extra spell. Thanks to lumen for the name inspiration.

Divine Ward: Protect self from spells and skills. Lasts 1 turn. Cost 1 action.

I like the idea of moving to ally location... ^^.
Thanks for the new units... The lancer is very fun...

Kran
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Wakrob on May 05, 2009, 08:46:50 PM
Im guessing the big reason things cost 550 is that that you cant combine them with other things that cost 550 or themselves.

I did have the lingering question as to whether or not Confessors remembered murders that happened when they werent on the board.  But this post answers that for me.

How about if Archangel could kill murderers even if it was not on the board at the time?  I realize the game might not be programmed like that, since there may not be a murderer tag on units.

Is there possibilities of selective immunities?  Currently some is either immune to skills or not.  Nothing is Immune to just poison.  I think an Archangel should be immune to control (demon ally, possession).

This game rocks!
Wak
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: glunkr on May 05, 2009, 11:58:17 PM
Wakrob, I really like the idea of being immune to possession, that's a very cool idea. I like the idea of the angel being something other than 550... 500 would be a neat value to have a unit in my opinion.

An idea I had was make it unique -- there can only be one archangel in play on the board at a time. It makes sense thematically (who ever heard of two archangels?) and would be an interesting way of stopping mimics and changelings.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Lumen on May 06, 2009, 02:02:59 AM
Quote from: glunkr on May 05, 2009, 11:58:17 PM
(who ever heard of two archangels?)

"Archangels" would be members of the second choir of angels.  There are supposed to be more than one of them.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: glunkr on May 06, 2009, 03:57:16 AM

Quote
"Archangels" would be members of the second choir of angels.  There are supposed to be more than one of them.

I stand corrected. But still, you have to admit it's an interesting mechanic.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: xsherlock on May 06, 2009, 11:54:44 AM
Yep agree that archangle is no way worth 550, maybe 400.

Just recently i got totaly nulified with a simple rouge, that was hiting me with for 1 damage for 5 rounds before killing that damm unit.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Chronic Logic - Josiah on May 06, 2009, 05:51:57 PM
I really like the idea of the Archangel being immune to possession, or anything else that would make you lose control of it.  There is not currently anything like that in game (immunity to select spells) so maybe immune to all spells (remember damage dealing spells are an attack not a spell)?
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Kran on May 06, 2009, 05:53:00 PM
I think it just need a more funny skill. Now with some games i see its a bit underpowered. Nice josiah. ^^
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Lumen on May 06, 2009, 06:03:18 PM
Actually, there IS an ability in the game with that effect, currently.  "Dies when control is lost"  from the doppelganger would provide an immunity to being possessed, converted, and turned into a demon.  However, I think immunity to spells at large is a fine addition that could bring the archangel up to its value.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Wakrob on May 06, 2009, 09:58:32 PM
Immune to all spells makes it a flying Golem/Ghost, nasty.  Any team based on a spell user would be toast.  While not as cool, I do like Lumen's 'Die when loses control' idea.

Or another thought.
Move:  Jump to anywhere within 3.  I know this is probably not in the game either as everything move in straight lines.

Wak
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: mongolian on May 06, 2009, 11:11:18 PM
As much as the arch angel needs to jump anywhere within 3, thats a bit too crazy.  Similarly, how about jumps 2x (range2). Still only has 2 actions.  I'd also drop back the cost to $500
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Kran on May 08, 2009, 03:44:09 PM
I liked the idea of "die when control is lost" and 2x 2range jumps. I hope decrease the price to 500$ is not much fun. I prefer the idea of a Clergy "Wyrm", costing 550. I think it need a non-much-powerfull skill to make the archangel values its price. I would suggest ally return to castle, 1 range, Cost 1 action. Thats not much powerfull hope I.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Lumen on May 20, 2009, 07:38:15 PM
Hahahaha!

It was underpowered, but this is a bit much.  Archangel is CRAZY with negating all the enemy attacks, plus the ability stacks with two angels.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Kran on May 23, 2009, 02:42:18 AM
What about making aegis a spell? I see no need of innorganic units be protected.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: minime on May 25, 2009, 01:13:51 AM
I like the new angel a lot. it is a good unit to use in coop or 2 vs 2 with beginners. their army becomes much more useful with the protection.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Kran on May 25, 2009, 01:25:30 AM
I learned that the hard way. Lol
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: SLOTH on May 26, 2009, 08:36:06 PM
I like the new angel as well.  I did not think it was worth the price before.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Kran on May 26, 2009, 09:05:28 PM
I would say its a bit overpowered as it is. Expecially in 2v2
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Lumen on May 27, 2009, 12:38:05 PM
Honestly, the Aegis is quite enough protection.  It doesn't need to also have the ability to return from the dead.  If you took that away, then it would still be strong, but not ridiculous.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: mongolian on May 31, 2009, 11:37:13 PM
Holy smokes the new angel is good.  I almost peed my pants when my opponent drew it in random.  In random, those extra 250 pts makes it a goliath.  Do people still think this is a fair-sized unit for random.  I think it's fair enough for constructed as armies are only 1000.

Does anyonw know which units work on angel: geomancer-enchanter-possessed-witch.

I'm really confused about the immune to abilitys and effects.

PS - what happens when angel has an artficer with it?  And why does it get to keep coming back to life if it's inorganic?
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Jezebeau on June 01, 2009, 01:45:03 AM
Even if it's inorganic, it returns to castle when it dies because its return to castle effect isn't a spell or a skill, so it's not immune to it.  It provides a once-per-turn immunity to every organic unit on your side (note that my inorganic angel didn't have the halo it provided to my three organic units).  All four of the units you mentioned will work on it, so long as it's already been targeted that turn.  Throw some other attack at it, then possess/frog/rock/stun it.  You'd be less confused if you: a) read the unit, and b) read what the colours of abilities mean, which you can find in the change log.

I don't understand what you mean by "those extra 250 pts".  It's a 550 point unit and you pay for that.  Like every other 550 point unit, it's potentially a liability in random because you end up with such a small main force.  I'll remind you that you won because you had a well-rounded army and I couldn't take down your units with one 4-power recurring unit.

When when you have an angel with an artificer, you have 900 points tied up and are pretty much screwed.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: glunkr on June 01, 2009, 02:30:50 AM
I think Mongolian means the extra 250 points in Random -- 1250 instead of 1000. 250 extra can give you more allies in your main force that get protected, which makes the Archangel more useful/powerful.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Jezebeau on June 01, 2009, 05:35:09 AM
Potentially, but it depends on you having useful units, which gets less likely, the bigger the units you have, and 200 of those points are always eaten up in a general and a gate guard.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: Kran on June 01, 2009, 08:31:46 AM
I like the idea, i'm just not fun of things that cant be circunvented. I mean, there is NOTHING i can use in angel's army in first time. Honestly, i would love the old angel, with the old smite, without the old price, a bit less.
Title: Re: Archangel
Post by: mongolian on June 01, 2009, 12:18:58 PM
Yes, that all being said, I totally would prefer to see a different type of angel.