Chronic Logic

CL, by removing numbers that have been visible for a while to some lucky guys you have created an unfair advantage to these, IMHO. Now they know what is at least needed to win - but I (and most others) dont know these numbers :(

As you cannot prevent that people talk with each other, I'd say there is no point in censoring posts here.
Especially since the rules dont forbid such conversation.
Think about it..   and let us at least know whether
the numbers had 5 or 6 digits ;)

The budget is (biiiiip). I'm looking forward to the close of the competition.

Lars...

The reason we have asked for you not to post numbers is for the exact reason you've stated.   We don't want the goal of the contest to keep changing so that you are always trying to beat the best post on the forum, we want you to just build the best bridge you can.  Posting numbers also makes people want to wait for until the last minute to submit their bridge, because they always want to be sure that theirs is beating the lowest post.  It also discourages other people from participating, because once they see a score that they can't possibly beat, they will quit.  We want you to submit it when you think you've done the best you can, and feel good about it.  

As far as an unfair advantage goes, we caught the post less than an hour after it was posted, and no one who read it knows whether the numbers are even genuine or not.  There are still 6 days left in the contest and that gives everyone plenty of time to optimize their bridges.

I don't know how much more official I can make it.  We are the people who made the rules and we are the ones who've asked you not to post numbers.  If you feel like our request does not hold enough authority, we can always amend the rules if that will make it seem more legitimate.

We're not trying to censor anybody, we just want to keep maintain the integrity of the contest.  This is the first one and we made a mistake by not including this request, but we'll make sure to put it in future contests.

If this seems harsh, we don't mean it to be.  We just wanted to answer your questions and justify our request.  We appreciate your feedback and hope even if you don't agree with us, that you understand where we are coming from.

-Chronic Logic

(Edited by larsberg at 6:12 pm on Oct. 20, 2001)

Now the waiting starts.. maybe thats the positive effect of not discussing numbers.. there is some tension now ;)

Working on a bridge for hours to reduce the cost by a few thousand dollars is kinda a pain, plus everybody builds bridges differently and you could be on the wrong track when revising your bridge.

Not gonna mention any figures, but ive been working on it all night, after having a random idea hit me while at work (which felt like someone maybe dropped the HAV on me...).

Bit of improvement from my original bridge, too - it takes up to 8 cars, athough practically every single link stresses to near breaking point with just 7 cars - that might just be my crappy design, tho.

Still, given me something to do for the last few nights while my GF is overseas ;)

As Calis mentioned, the stress is really getting to me too now.... aggggghhhh!

Good luck to everyone else, and whoever betters my bridge (bound to be someone) _deserves_ the title of Pontifex Maximus!

That is all.

Yay me!

(Edited by Proj2501 at 11:15 pm on Oct. 23, 2001)

I helped to organize contests and rules (sim racing, hot laps and races - online and offline) since more than 5 years now.

Here is what I think:

Your approach (not discussing numbers during the event) will lead to rather different designs and a wide spreaded score range (maybe shocking/frustrating people - just imagine a guy who send in a 220k bridge he is proud of finding out the winner did it with 20k [numbers are pure phantasy! 20k isnt enough to lay the deck now :) ])
It is a nice approach to get many different solutions.
I think, this community is strong enough not to cheat
(since you can put the no discussion part into the rules but there is no way to enforce it, no way to detect cheaters, ..) I had no problems with a similar thing years ago.

I would like to see a different type of contest here (not saying that all others are worse!):

More time (let's say a month), more than one entry per participant encouraged, newest one counts. Regular updates (daily if it can be automated) of the best solutions so far. Discussion encouraged, maybe even designs disclosed.
This emphasizes to find the best possible solution. People will push each other to lower and lower numbers. And the goal for the best shifts from winning the contest to the goal of staying ahead in the daily update (even if there is no prize for that one, I have seen this more than once - the human mind is twisted ;)

This ruleset has some advantages:
No problem with people whining about their discarded entries (they can always make a corrected submission).
Doesnt rely on rules no one can enforce.

I don't really have anything to say I guess (since we're not allowed to post numbers). I just wanted to write something cuz I think I'm "done" now and not quite ready for bed.

If anyone has anything interesting to say then just post. I'm sorta bored with anticipation of a result that won't be known for another week.

MrTaco

Over the past couple of days I've managed to reduce the cost of my bridge by far more than I would've believed possible when I made my first crude working attempt. If someone had posted the figure I now have a couple of days ago, I would've given up there and then.

That's not bragging, I still fully expect to get beaten - but even if I do, I'll be justly proud of my bridge. I've took it a lot further than I ever thought I could - and isn't that the whole point?

I cannot wait to see the top entries (and see where I could have done better).  ^_^

(Edited by Tyree at 7:21 am on Oct. 21, 2001)

DOH!

Anyways, as everyone else, I can't wait to see how "rediculously low" some people built the bridge for!

ChronicLogic, please understand me right this time - it is not a practical suggestion in defiance of your post, but a humorous repartee not to be taken seriously ;-)

(Edited by mendel at 1:57 pm on Oct. 26, 2001)

i will post the url to the bridge tribute site as soon as the contest is over

anyway.. to take screenshots, just press F8 it saves the screen in screens/

(Edited by u2pa at 3:13 pm on Oct. 26, 2001)

Good luck to everyone, and congrats in advance to the winner, who I bet would rather have "Pontifex Maximus" under their graphic than a cash prize :cheesy:

This waiting is going to kill me. I already know that the bridge I submitted is not going to be the best offering, but I'm tormenting myself, wondering if my current, private design will best the winner of the contest.

I need to take some Valium. I can't believe I'm going to have to wait until Monday.

I wasn't even close with my 125166. Bugger!

Hail the Pontifex Maximus! Hurray!!!

Now im not stupid so i *guess* it is to make the bridge as cheap as possible. But some confirmation of this would be nice.

I would also like the contest to be to make the bridge as *beautiful* as possible ( we do a vote on the bridges after the deadline), or to make it as much earthquake proof as possible.

Can someone officially confirm that the contest is about making the bridge as cheap as possible?

Hmm... you mean, you didnt work on Sunday? What a concept ;)

BTW: Contest rule 6 asks a password.
Do you mean the password I use for the forum or the password I got via mail at registration time?

(Edited by Gray at 5:06 pm on Oct. 21, 2001)

And let me ask you this. You comment on someone downloading the bridge on the 25th and not being able to win. Logically speaking, with or without this small little bonus, do you think he'll be able to slap up a design would beat someone who'd thought about and optimized his bridge from the very start? And if it did, would it be by that small a margin that a small bonus would drop him to second place?

If that second guy had spent a long time optimising his bridge anyway, he'd be sending it in pretty close to the deadline anyway, thus nullifying the bonus.

You don't have to fault me for making a suggestion. Its not like CL will absolutely listen to whatever I say and implement it, so keep your cool a little

I can't wait to see what the winning design is!

-Andy

i have finally made one... for (edited by CL)...
no prob here...

On a totally different subject: I started the longest thread, yay!

Why I couldn't do this a week ago I don't know. I spent several hours over the week and couldn't make a cheaper design. In the past two, I've shaved off mucho bucks.

I've made my submission, and look forward to the results, if only to see the way others tackled it.

Looking forward to the next one already....

Regards to all in the forums, this really is beginning to become a lively, and friendly community.

I'm glad CL is censoring prices, because I would probably be really frustrated right now trying to win.  As it is, I'm done with it, and even though I'm sure someone like Gray or Chillum will beat me, I'm #### proud that I came up with a weird design that turns dark blue and bright red from one end to the other but doesn't break

I'd like to see everybody take a screenshot of their bridge (in the edit screen) and let everybody look at all the different designs when the contest is over... especially the winner.

And on a side note, aren't the little blue smiley faces eerily calm looking?

baggio: *Grin* We live and learn =)

Argonut: The speed dictates the simulation speed, not the speed the train runs. If you make a really bouncy bridge, you'll notice when switching to "fast" that the frequency of bouncing increases. Your train will behave the same way regardless of the simulation speed.

And, the more entries, the better. Hopefully CL will post screenshots of all the entries after the contest. I love browsing through tons of other designs - contest winners or not!

And who knows, even though I dont feel those who have posted scores were doing such to deceive people, what if someone wasn't totally truthful with their cost and they discouraged someone from entering that could have really won?

Just my Ũ.02

i'd also like to say that i don't see why multiple submissions is a problem.  why not just make the mail client auto replace a users last submission.  that way theres always only the best one entry per user.

BTW: How do we take screenshots?

This is exciting I would say

Edit: Sorry Klei. I don't know why I wrote my reply in danish. What I wrote was:

It's the first contest. Everybody should be able to participate.

BTW: CL, how many bridges have you recieved so far?

(Edited by Dreadnough at 3:16 pm on Oct. 25, 2001)

BTW, Just sent in my bridge. Gray: I've gotten it cheaper than when we last talked, but I'm not telling HOW much cheaper =P. Let you simmer a bit in anxiety before you click "send".

Edit: Deadnough: Nope, CL wasn't referring to that - removing the cross-beam actually weakens the structure. What CL was talking about is an exploit that gives you deck cheaper, yet has exactly the same physical properties as a normal, unexploited deck. After the contest I'll start a thread detailing that bug, and (if CL doesn't already fix it by then) some suggestions for workarounds which might also provide another neat feature for Pfx.

(Edited by falkon2 at 5:06 am on Oct. 25, 2001)

(Edited by Sarterixa at 1:19 am on Oct. 20, 2001)

(Edited by Gray at 4:29 pm on Oct. 26, 2001)

Or even give false (I.e. higher figures) to lull folks into a false sense of security.

post results of contest soon

Budget: less than (edited by ChronicLogic)

I think the winning bridge will be around (edited by ChronicLogic)

Now did you feel frightened?

Gotcha! It's all made up! Scary rumour to heighten the tension! ;-)

(Oops, ground floor, ####) *whines*

Just kidding, but seriously, I've really been worried because MY e-mail server sometimes quietly loses my mail.   *gasp*

Better play some GTA 3 to calm my nerves.  

Maybe add this to the contest rules?

(Edited by kvinge at 3:08 pm on Oct. 20, 2001)

A funny think happenes to me on teh awy here... uh... er, ####.

(Edited by falkon2 at 10:06 pm on Oct. 29, 2001)

I too have a bridge that requires "settling." I'm not talking about 30 seconds, more like 10-15 (on a 400 mhz celeron) which is probably 5-7 seconds on an average 800 mhz p3.

How much settling time do we get?

Once we have such, maybe there should be a way to store the settling time along with the bridge to make batch testing possible for bridges needing different delays. (or just specify a multiple test with delays 1,2,3,4,5,7,10,15,20 or such..  would take longer to test, though :)

my contest bridge will carry 10 carriages, so I don't think it's in any danger of winning! lol

Instead of proscribing what motivates people, why not let them decide themselves?

Suggestion: make a 5th "contest designs" forum; forbid talking contest designs/scores outside of that and don't restrict it inside. General discussion about the contest (about the rules etc.) should stil be going on in the "General" Forum.

That way, players who feel they'll be demotivated by these things can stay clear of that forum; players who feel that will motivate them can read it.

What we need now is a poll (Gray, are you listening?).

Quote

Btw, the "settling time" issue is connected to the issues disussed in the "Strongest bridges?" thread. I would suggest adding a mid-air Ũ-cost box (see "A new kind of record" ) to your bridge that self-destructs when it hits ground; once that happens, Chronic may start the train.
I'm not sure if the rules need to be amended for that since it's not the bridge that breaks links when the box hits. Ben/Alex, what do you think?

I think that minimum settle time is ok, as you really wouldn't expect to place a real bridge and have it flap about a bit before considering it finished.

As a perfect example, look at the guys who designed the Millenium footbridge in London, UK. It never settled! LOL. Guess they should have left the design for all us Pontifex users, we probably would have made it on a lower budget too!:wink:

Regarding the settling period:  We will wait until we feel the bridge is "settled" before we test the bridge.  We do not want to specify an exact time, nor do we feel like we should.  Our point is that we don't want bridges that only work under certain conditions (TT'ability being one of them),   we want bridges that, once settled, will always work.  The reason we said we'd wait a few seconds, is that we have yet to see a bridge that takes more than that to settle, but in the event we do, we'll give it the time it needs.

Mendel, the point of having rules is to regulate behavior.  The point of motivating people a certain way is to encourage behavior.  Your question is, in essence, the same as the one by Calis.  Why don't we have a separate forum for contest discussion?  Simply put, because we don't want people to discuss their numbers.  It gives an unfair advantage to those would use the forum, not to mention, violates the individuality that we are seeking in the contest.  We have no problem with people discussing their bridges with friends, we just have asked you not to make your numbers public knowledge.

We hope this clears up these issues, and if there are any more questions, we'll be here.

I'm really glad that posting Prices for bridges was not allowed.  I could not have possibly made my final bridge any cheaper, and if I had seen that someone else had, I wouldn't have even bothered to submit mine.

Now that I have submitted one though, I feel all warm and fuzzy inside, and I even think I might win still.  :o

Anyway, everyone should play carmageddon 2 if they haven't already, the crushing physics are fantastic.

You talk about "individuality" and "discussing with friends". You can't control the latter, so the first is moot. This is no written exam after all, this should be fun. Real bridges are always constructed as a team effort, and often there are public hearings.

A seperate forum is not an unfair advantage.
How is having something that everyone can use unfair?

Not having people to discuss the contest with is a disadvantage you impose by denying this forum. You impose it on those who don't have friends to discuss pontifex with (or friends who are not as good at it as my friends are ;-). People who discuss with friends do not have the disadvantage. Having the forum would be more fair.

It's your contest, you decide.
If I don't like your decisions, I don't need to participate. I could even run my own contest :-)

But still there's the urge to put in my 2 cents ;-)

"Send in any bridge, someone will win."

(Edited by mendel at 12:47 am on Oct. 23, 2001)

Ah anywayz, just woke after spending all last night getting a contest1 bridge working.  Finally @ 4am the #### thing was humming.  I'm another believer in not knowing the scores of other people, sort of promotes my ego a bit, thinking that my $###### bridge is the cheapest :-)

Again i'd just like to say nice work fellars.

*blows up*

Speaking of results, how will they get posted? will we see a list of the complete results, so we can satisfy our curiosity by seeing how many people entered, and look down the list to see how other people we know did?

But I do have one question that isn't clarified in the rules. What speed will the train run at in the official tests? slow, medium, or fast? or all? My bridge doesn't mind what speed, but I could definitely see that some designs might break with a fast train, or even fail with a slow train instead of fast, etc.

anyway, enough for now. Great game, thanks for putting together the new version, guys

I think it should be possible to resubmit newer designs, but with the more recent design resetting your submition time.  Kinda like an EBay auction.  I may not win the contest now, but my newer design might have.

I understand CLs decision in this, to prevent people submitting every bridge they designed, but next time maybe the limit should be no more than 3 entrees.

edit: I rechecked, and I shaved even more off than I had thought... :/ บk

(Edited by baggio at 1:40 am on Oct. 26, 2001)

Me personally want to see how you all designed youre bridge, not so much how much i cost.. Well thats me and im not angry/pissed that I know im not going to win this contest,but more interested in how it looks...

(Dont mind the english guys, long time since my last essay

Beaujob, the deck cheat goes like this:
Build light steel where the back of your deck will be, after that, build the deck. The deck will use the pre-built steel, at much lower cost, but same strength. The light steel will still show up as the usual line in the editor if you look closely.

You can use heavy steel as well; that way, it'll cost more, but you have added strength.

The seed to this was laid with my crooked1 bridge published on the Turns thread (which cost less than it ought to have, without me noticing), and Gray and I realized what this meant while we were chatting about it on icq.

Imagine the agony of deciding whether to use this advantage clocking in at more than 񙖰 for the contest bridge, whether rule 3 stating "Anything other than the previous two conditions is fair game." covered this eventuality, what would happen if we decided not to use this advantage, someone else had indepently discovered it from the "Turns" posting and won with it, etc.
In the end, we decided to ask ChronicLogic, which resulted in the announcement you all read. ;-)

(Edited by mendel at 4:02 pm on Oct. 27, 2001)

I just threw together a contest bridge in 5 minutes for kicks, it actually held, and it cut off a huge amount from the bridge I submitted.  The winning bridge had BETTER be cheaper or I'm gonna smack myself.:shocked: