Author Topic: To All Zatikon Players  (Read 38721 times)

Lunaraia

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2009, 05:42:23 AM »
Oy mongolian haven't ya heard, im making a game manual so to speak, check out my Zatikon School For beginners in the Units section, and if everything goes as planned it will later be moved into the blog once it is done
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mongolian

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2009, 02:28:35 PM »
Crew,

The site looks much better then it was when I first joined, the game has progressed alot but the population almost the same.  So if the game has had several expansions, better game balance, 2v2 mode, plenty of bells and whistles, the game doesn't need to get better.  But, the game needs to be advertised and possably more attractive for new players.  Also, needs a little revamp on the homepage to make the game looks fresh. It's an easy answer to say blame advertising/marketing for things, but what other things can affect more players/keep players

IMPORTANCE/EFFECT:
- Better GUI (medium)
- Better website (low)
- Adding youtube like video to homepage (medium/low)
- More units (low)
- New set (medium, only cause it helps bring in sales :) )
- Advertising (high, but where for low budget)
- Trainer-helper (medium)
- Convert to web based format/flash (high, but low in terms of effort)
- ?
- ??
- ???

sgainford

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2009, 07:37:55 AM »
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 09:05:08 AM by sgainford »

mongolian

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2009, 10:59:05 AM »
Quote from: sgainford
My advice is first to get rid of the time constraints and set up email Zatikon

I played with my brother and a few others and yes, it would help to be an OPTION, not a requirement.  That being said, I don't think it's that huge of an issue as it's better to get players adapted to the fast style of play as most games the norm is approximately a 1 min timer.  About 'email Zatikon', I'm not sure what you mean, but I don't see much purpose for creation of something similiar.  At that point, just make a new game which is not the correct response.

Quote from: sgainford

I've addressed many of your points, but I will reiterate: GAMERS DON'T READ. They don't like to read the units or interpret the abilities, let alone read how to play.  Click now, ask later.  Which is why gamers are more interested to see a lame animation of pieces attacking one another rather then have a function.  Look how popular a game like Dofus became.   But, I feel like Zatikon needs to go in between what it is now and what the new real time strategy game Chronic Logic came up with.  Basically, the game should have functions & animations like a SNES game.  Look at games like SNES: Ogre Battle or Command & Conquer'ish type games.  Or even better, the classic Starcraft/Warcraft.  Why can't Zatikon use similiar graphics in a turn based Zatikon concept?  I know there are a few games floating around with better graphics like this and worse gameplan for turn based games.

What I've always believed to be a better solution then better in-game graphics, is the opposite end, making the game 'feel' simpler.  Even if Zatikon didn't use 'sprites', isn't it possible to simplify the units and the unit system?  Can't the game split up complex units into 2-3 units, simplify the combat system?  A game that I've recently got into which I think heavily relates to this topic is 'Battalion Arena' found on www.kongregate.com  Just look at the animations/combat system. 

Lunaraia

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2009, 03:49:45 PM »
zatikon is fine as it is, id be very disappointed if they changed the way things worked
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sgainford

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2009, 07:14:39 AM »
zatikon is fine as it is, id be very disappointed if they changed the way things worked
About 'email Zatikon', I'm not sure what you mean, but I don't see much purpose for creation of something similiar.  At that point, just make a new game which is not the correct response.
www.mychess.de
I've addressed many of your points, but I will reiterate: GAMERS DON'T READ. They don't like to read the units or interpret the abilities, let alone read how to play.  Click now, ask later.  Which is why gamers are more interested to see a lame animation of pieces attacking one another rather then have a function.  Look how popular a game like Dofus became.   But, I feel like Zatikon needs to go in between what it is now and what the new real time strategy game Chronic Logic came up with.  Basically, the game should have functions & animations like a SNES game.  Look at games like SNES: Ogre Battle or Command & Conquer'ish type games.  Or even better, the classic Starcraft/Warcraft.  Why can't Zatikon use similiar graphics in a turn based Zatikon concept?  I know there are a few games floating around with better graphics like this and worse gameplan for turn based games.

What I've always believed to be a better solution then better in-game graphics, is the opposite end, making the game 'feel' simpler.  Even if Zatikon didn't use 'sprites', isn't it possible to simplify the units and the unit system?  Can't the game split up complex units into 2-3 units, simplify the combat system?  A game that I've recently got into which I think heavily relates to this topic is 'Battalion Arena' found on www.kongregate.com  Just look at the animations/combat system.  

« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 10:00:00 AM by sgainford »

mongolian

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2009, 01:05:24 PM »
Quote
In Chess you move one unit per turn. In Zatikon you have too many moves going on.

I strongly disagree. It could help for simplicity sake to give a flat # of commands like 5-6 and remove all action making units, but Zatikon is and should NEVER be meant to be a 1-2 action type of game.  At that point you mine as well create a completely new game type.

Quote


I agree there is a market to steal chess players and Zatikon should do more to do that, but Zatikon is NOT about trumping chess.  Zatikon is taking the idea of chess as its base and giving players more interactivity, playability, flexability and a more modern computerised hybrid of chess.  Gamers today definately are easily more attracted to graphics over function, but I believe anything is possible for a game to be 'succesful'.  But, let's define success:  If you want a game to make money, that's where MMORPG's are.  If you want a game to be popular, try making mini games and things that won't make money.  If you want to design a successful strategy game, expect a small demographic.  First, you have to fight off console gamers.  Next, skirt off the demographic of gamers obsessed with graphics (CIV/Quake/Command&Conquer/etc.), after that try to find 'strategy gamers'.  To me, it seems 66% of Zatikon players come in like teenagers.  They are here for free goodies and to try a new game.  After a few days of playing the AI and trying a couple other game modes, they lose interest quickly.  You also have to factor in that yes, the graphics, game and what not look very old and vintage.  It's just not what I think people are looking for.  Sure, the third to a half of Zatikon players came to find something similiar to what they were looking for: a new strategy game and probablly something similiar to chess.  But, without the game being so heavy reliant to be played alone or vs the AI as there are so few people are online, many have left.  It's not saying the game failed, but more the game needs new ways to attract players.  

Cooperative mode is probablly the most popular mode next to single player.  Despite being a die hard fan for Random mode, this tells me people hate competition.  Which you have to understand is really odd because this game is similiar to chess which thrives on human vs human.  But, people really do hate losing to another human but don't mind being defeated by an AI.  I think it's clear the game should expand on a game focued for multiple ways to play against the computer and have playing with another human or 2 be optional.  When the game gains popularity, it can always fall back into the Random/Constructed modes but this should be treated secondary.  

Lastly, I think the game needs to get simpler, but it's difficult to say as it means lots of changes.  I think the combat system is fine.  Even more so, It would be nice to see more of the basic stats written out more.  Zatikon needs to survive as a game of many units where users have the option to read what a unit does but majority of the time users should not be needed to read what a unit does.  The current system still doesn't work that way, even after playing for a long time.  It's clear a Horse in chess moves like in a "L".  It's clear a warlock can hit something within 5 and that a summoner will make more units, but if I have to click to read that a warlock does different damage from a straight line that hits 6 or click to read the stats of the summoner's summons, I feel Zatikon will never get grandiose.  An abjurer simply only needs to unsommon 1 thing within 5, no need to write or have it do anything more.  A Knight could simply kill anything without armor and automatically kill anything with 2 hits, but he won't have any other abilities, nor should I click to have to find out how much hit points units have.  I'm sure I'm over exaggerating things, but It's also good to keep questioning the way we think about Zatikon.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 02:18:36 PM by mongolian »

mongolian

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2009, 04:09:34 PM »
btw, I forgot to mention how much I LOATHE day based games.  Every game I've seen on the internet like this.  It's like every myspace application has this where you log in each day and get X amount of credits/moves per day.  The internet is flooded with these types of games and I see no interest to see Zatikon move to this direction.   Zatikon unlike chess doesn't need to have 8 move deep analysis.  Including an optional Unlimited (or 5 min) timer resolves this suggestion for players.

sgainford

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2009, 04:39:12 AM »
Lastly, I think the game needs to get simpler, but it's difficult to say as it means lots of changes.  I think the combat system is fine.  Even more so, It would be nice to see more of the basic stats written out more.  Zatikon needs to survive as a game of many units where users have the option to read what a unit does but majority of the time users should not be needed to read what a unit does.  The current system still doesn't work that way, even after playing for a long time.  It's clear a Horse in chess moves like in a "L".  It's clear a warlock can hit something within 5 and that a summoner will make more units, but if I have to click to read that a warlock does different damage from a straight line that hits 6 or click to read the stats of the summoner's summons, I feel Zatikon will never get grandiose.  An abjurer simply only needs to unsommon 1 thing within 5, no need to write or have it do anything more.  A Knight could simply kill anything without armor and automatically kill anything with 2 hits, but he won't have any other abilities, nor should I click to have to find out how much hit points units have.  I'm sure I'm over exaggerating things, but It's also good to keep questioning the way we think about Zatikon.

I agree

Lunaraia

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2009, 08:10:39 PM »
Agree with you there Mongolian, NO LIMIT PER DAY, or im out of Zatikon for good
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lorax

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2011, 11:08:29 AM »
i could see giving novice players a little more time, but how to implement this with the new ranking system is not clear to me.  might have to be un-related to rank, and just time since account creation or something like that.

that said, i am very against increasing the time limit.  the beauty of this game is that you have to figure out your moves in limited time.  most of the time, this is not much of a problem (for seasoned players).  increasing the time limit would kill p vs p live games.  people think this game is boring now, imagine having to wait another half a minute for someone to make their moves and it would become dreadfull.  that said, giving players who want to take forever as an option for both would be fine too, but it would have to be mutual. 

to me, the real problem in getting people to get into this game is the lack of a meaningful rewards system.  about the only reward before was obtaining a higher rank.  although i was in support of the new ranking system, now that its been implemented, i feel like the one last reward for this game is now gone, as the new ranking seems nearly meaningless to me with so few players around.  (by the way, the ranks don't even fit on the scroll window anymore, which is annoying to say the least).  when a newb logs on too, the ranking makes no sense at all.  what the heck is 1000?  why is there another number by the name?  there needs to be some up top explanation right there when you log on or something.  not clear to me now how long the rankings last, or what i am even trying to accomplish. 

most new players also want to play solo.  very few want to play against another person at first until they have some solo experience.  so its this solo experience that needs work.  again, it needs a better reward system.  not just gold, but some sort of achievements.  an example would be if relics could only be obtained through certain achievements, not by purchasing them.  or some way to upgrade your units in some other fashion.  or just even obtaining more advanced units.    also, the solo AI needs to be retooled somehow to make that much more interesting.  some sort of scenarios or something like that would make it more meaningful.  something to keep the newb interested.   

Fiffers

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2011, 08:03:36 PM »
Can we unsticky this old debate. If we are not addressing it this gets in the way. Lets have a standard time and options for extending that both players can agree on. I enjoy this over chess, just because it's on a chess grid does not mean we need to make it more like chess. Simplify a little more or make it easier to understand all the effects.

Fif

xsherlock

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Re: To All Zatikon Players
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2011, 06:47:04 AM »
My point is that the Zatikon is good as it is now, and in the world there are thousands of players that would love it as it is, we just need to reach them, my idea of doing it is to relase Android/iOS version as quicly as possible as that would give a massive boost to the audience.