Author Topic: The Big Three Ruining the game  (Read 4023 times)

mongolian

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The Big Three Ruining the game
« on: February 03, 2009, 02:27:18 PM »
All in all, I really think most of the upgrades are very impressive.  Unfortunately, there are 3 units left that are very troublesome.  I played a top 20 player (unnamed) and today after my assassin stunned his whole group:

QUOTE
i think i quit this game, and find a new one


I've explained this before, but I'll try to go in depth here:

UNIT PROBLEM #1: Magus
As if it wasn't bad ass enough he stuns for 5, puts on critters that autokill, the main big problem with this unit is that it is absolutely unkillable.  A game can not produce units that are 100% unkillable.  Put yourself in the frame of mind of an average or new player.  They will have a swarm of army and problablly not know what to do about it.  Two-three turns later you advance your magus and you start picking off almost anything that looks ediable.  There is going to be next to nothing your opponent can do but go all out attack.  This being the case, the remaineder of your units are generally setup for.  The bigger complaint here isn't that its not beatable, but that is just isn't fun playing against.

SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS:
I really like The magus's other abilities, they are worth $350, but when a magus turns into a spirit he should have one of the following:
(1) Spirit unsommons after 10 turns. Not less or more, exactly on turn 10. Can change to 10-15 too with more testing.
(2) Spirit has attack damage 2.  This will make all structes safe and most defense 2.
(3) Start implementing units with defense 3, but this would take a huge analysis within.
(4) My last option, give him power 5 or 6 and only moves once per turn in his magus state.

UNIT PROBLEM #2: Wizard
Your probablly all saying, no way, wizard is $350, that's already too much.  Well, for those non-vets that don't comprehend this game, Zatikon is all about range.  The wizard in a block of other $50 units is elite.  Or just slap him together with any type of archer or wizard and bam-o, unbeatable units.  The main problem isn't seeing wizard on a general or any normal unit that moves 3, but the long range stuff.  Again, it's not fun playing this game starting a battle your opponent has no chance winning.

SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS:
(1) He gives all units 1 extra movement. You can combine this with whatever the units normal movement is.
(2) Stay with the current model, but any jump counts as that unit's normal moving spaces.
(3) Wizard only gives ranged units 1 extra movement vs 2.

UNIT PROBLEM #3: Assassin
Three scenarios here make the new assassin too elite.  1, combine with a ranger, dump out a jumpable wolf and unsommon. BAM.  #2, the super long range of 5 rider's and then assassin.  #3, unkillable bezerkers and BAAAAAAAm.  Combine all three scenarios and you truly have an overpowerful combo lists to use with the remained of your units.  The stem of this problem is that the assassin stun is just too powerful when combined with other units.  It's virtually undefendable in most scenarios and it's a sure likely fire to make your opponent concede and close this application.

SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS:
(1) Agreed that the assassin is too powerful, pop him back to a $200 pricetag.  
(2) Return the assassin to what it was and only have his poison darts have a range of 2 vs 3.  If you think this was not enough, then also add:
(3) Return assassin to how it was, but it can not make autokill when summoned.

minime

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The Big Three Ruining the game
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2009, 09:05:49 AM »
i think when we say a unit is too strong we should specify which format we talk about.

I mostly play random. So here is what i think about some units in random:

Magus:
the magus is too strong. I think the spirit isnt that strong itself, I think in most games I don't even turn it into a spirit(but when I do I win the with it). I think the 3 great ability altogether is too good. The good about the spirit: it is like a clock, it gives the game a new dynamic, you have to win fast against it. If there is a problem, I think it isnt the unkillable unit, but that, maybe the "clock" is too fast. so maybe the 2 power or the 1 move would slow it down a bit(on the other hand, maybe it will never be changed to a spirit then). Or make tacticians to be able to kill a spirit(but this would take away the whole unkillable thing). Or make the token

Assassin:
i like the new assassin in random. If the other player isnt careful enough it can change a game from a win to an instant loss. I did not play it enough to say the ability it is broken(it is at least very strong though). The real problem comes when the other player has some token engine and you have to attack fast. Then it is not rare you cant kill the assassin because you dont have an unstunned unit there that could move around the stunned ones(the stunned units are like a wall in front of the assasin). Maybe it is just too cheap. or it would be better if it could kill only once per turn. or somehow the other player should know it is coming.

draco:
draco should be banned in random. it is almost impossible to win a game if you get a draco. (or maybe draco is too weak overall. I dont know if it is used in constructed or not.)

shield maiden + any unit that can heal:
it is very hard to beat this combo in random. Maybe they shouldn't be there together.

artificer:
Maybe it is just me, but I dont like it in random. Sometime it is very strong(when the opponent has an enchanter or/and a geomancer or some other expensive units that now become useless), sometime it is totally useless. And because it is a 350 unit, when it is useless it means lot. So you or your opponent gets a crippled army when you get the artificer.

that's all.

garcia1000

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The Big Three Ruining the game
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2009, 04:30:01 AM »
Magus isn't overpowering, but the problem is that the spirit is totally zero fun for both players.

A simple solution: remove the "Transform into a spirit" function.

Wizard is still crazy overpowered because his ability gives super range to 50 cost units that were balanced around their bad range.  Also he gives super range to big units too. I don't have a sensible suggestion here

Assassin is way overpowered now imo.

xsherlock

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The Big Three Ruining the game
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2009, 10:54:56 AM »
On the other hand i like magus, both to have or to play against, it gives a pace to the game, also it is totaly neutralized by the serpent

if the random balancer (if it exists) will give the oponent few 3 action or jumping  units  it can make for very interesting game.

mongolian

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The Big Three Ruining the game
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 12:58:37 PM »
QUOTE
More about assassin:
- yes, if assassin could only kill 1 unit a turn would solve the problem.  I might even go further and say he is stuned after kill, but it would be pretty irrelevant, but easier way to coder.
- No, assassin works best in the offensive 1/2 of the board, not defensive.  Either way, limitations on summons is not solving the problem.

Option#3, assassin must assassinate the unit it brings into play.  This is more then making up for his ability, perhaps too much.

Options#4, when assassin comes into play, he must return 2-3 squares in the path of the unit that was stunned.

Option#5, when assassin comes into play it does not stun, but comes into play stunned.  It will make a random automatic kill though. (includes allies)..if this is too powerful, it can always default to assassiniate any or all neighboring allies.

roxo

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Re: The Big Three Ruining the game
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2009, 02:35:42 AM »
random damage isn't this game.

bum

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Re: The Big Three Ruining the game
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2009, 06:48:15 AM »
ASSASSIN: should be able to stun ONLY 1 unit, you get to chosse which instead of everything in  range 1.

DRACOLICH: enemy ressurects as a SKELETON or SKELETON ARCHER. with skeletons 1/1 life its not so
dominating facing skeletons instead of your own units that just got killed OR undead versions of your units that only have 1/1 life! easy to kill!!!

Lunaraia

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Re: The Big Three Ruining the game
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2009, 07:11:05 AM »
The dracolich is acually good as it is, don't see a point in changing it anymore, honestly it's become alot more balanced then when you could simply have 2 doppels kill your own draco with something and  sit there with 2 of every unit u killed
Bad guys are no problem when you're an asshole yourself

Kran

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Re: The Big Three Ruining the game
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2009, 06:56:39 PM »
i like dracolich and assasin the way they are right now

glunkr

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Re: The Big Three Ruining the game
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2009, 08:19:14 PM »
I can't speak for the dracolich or warlock, but I also like the assassin the way it is. Yes it's powerful, but it's also hard to use. And there are plenty of ways to stop it. So please don't change the assassin.

mongolian

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Re: The Big Three Ruining the game
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2009, 10:12:32 PM »
Sorry, but this topic is really mute now on the fact tuns of new units have been thrown into the mix.  I really love the new assassin, thank you for fixing it with 2 actions!

As for magus, I think this is the least of my worries for pieces still.  At the top level of playing, Magus is actually a fair priced unit.  I do, on the otherhand, think Magus is probablly an overpowerful unit when two low levels fight each other.  All in all magus is fine.

As for wizard, I've address the problem and solution here:
http://www.pontifex2.com/smf/index.php/topic,1028.15.html