Author Topic: Triggers  (Read 9912 times)

Jezebeau

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2009, 11:25:32 PM »
We have non-explicit trigger combinations.  Wouldn't preventing non-explicit cancellations add to RPS?  Army design would be significantly less interesting if everyone needed to have a rider, a shield-bearer, a catapult, a fanatic, et cetera to provide explicit counters to all the problem RPS units.

zatikon

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2009, 04:38:01 AM »
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We have non-explicit trigger combinations.  Wouldn't preventing non-explicit cancellations add to RPS?  Army design would be significantly less interesting if everyone needed to have a rider, a shield-bearer, a catapult, a fanatic, et cetera to provide explicit counters to all the problem RPS units.

I just mean that the only thing that can cancel an effect is another effect that directly states that it cancels effects. I don't see how this promotes RPS balance. It'll affect some in-game mechanics in unforeseen ways, but that's why we're discussing it. I imagine the biggest impact will be on units with Vigilance all striking a unit with damage beyond what's necessary to kill it.

glunkr

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2009, 05:39:11 AM »
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The most explicit example I can think of would be:
>Warrior with 1 life attached to longbowman attacks heretic.
-->Warrior attack triggers longbowman attack.
-->Longbowman attack resolves, damaging heretic.
-->Heretic triggers, reducing life of all opposing organics by 1.
-->Warrior dies.
>Warrior is dead, attack is cancelled, heretic survives with 1 life.

I would prefer it if the warrior attack still went through, even if the warrior died in the middle of it. I have a few reasons:

1. It makes more sense conceptually. How can a longbowman successfully attack when the warrior doesn't even hit?

2. It gives too much precedence to defensive units. Take for instance a new unit.... call it a Thorn Bush. Whenever you attack it from range 1, it deals you damage. Under your system if you don't have enough health to survive the counter-attack you die before dealing damage. I would prefer it that in all cases, you still damage the Thorn Bush, even if you die. That way, there is a difference in the Swordman's parry ability and the Thorn Bush.

zatikon

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2009, 06:13:12 AM »
I've run into some gotchas with the system.

Who killed my Martyr?
Two Pikemen strike a moving Martyr. The stack builds, both their attacks resolve, and the stack is empty. During death resolution, which Pikeman is the murderer?

Possible solutions:
They both did it. During death resolution, all units that damaged the deceased during the stack are flagged as its killer.
Pros: The player doesn't need to understand the arcane innerworkings of automatic sequencing to predict the outcome.
Cons: It would change the balance of triggered attacks and Martyrs

He did it. The unit that first inflicted lethal damage on the Martyr is flagged as its killer.
Pros and Cons: opposite of "They both did it"

Which attack was healed?
A player has a Warrior and Healer, and the Warrior takes a move that causes a Tower and a Pikeman to strike it. The Pikeman is power 4, and the Tower is power 3. How much life does the Warrior have now?

Possible solutions:
Temporary overhealing. All heal effects on a stack will add the unit's Max Life attribute to its current life. During Death Resolution, any Life above Max Life is lost.
Pros: The player will be able to predict the outcome of the action without having to know which effects happen in what order.
Cons: Triggered healing will become more powerful by creating an extra damage buffer. The mechanic is also somewhat counter-intuitive.

Dueling Dracolichs
Two players in a Cooperative game have a Dracolich. An enemy unit dies. Which player gets the risen enemy?

Possible Solutions:
Staggered sequence. The trigger priority for the failed Tomb Lord effect increases, so the Dracolichs will alternate which one gets the risen enemy.
Pros: One Dracolich doesn't cancel out the other.
Cons: It's difficult for the players to predict which one will go first.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 06:17:13 AM by zatikon »

Kran

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2009, 01:49:12 PM »
Krans Ideas about the tigger.

First. Attacks and conterattack, all are damaged, no matter if allready died. This include the longbowman, the swordman counterattack, vigilants.

Second. Things that tigger from damage. So, if survive until here, healer heal tiggers. Same aplyes to heretic, but this one dont need to stay living to tigger. Two attacks performed againt a heretic at once, counts as only 1 damage. (Units+longbow) Everything is tiggered now, but just happens truely at third. Everything over the maximum life is lost.
Same aplyes to martyr death too, all are tiggered in end.
Now units that fought bravely have to go or to the hell or to the heaven.FS make ally return and everything is performed at end of stack. Death triggers now trigger, but really just happen in third. Explosions caused by the new unit in development now tigger, and units will receive damage in Third. Now that mourners will give life to units that still alive now when unit died in first. Note that this give life to units that would die cuz of reckining, becouse that still going to happen. And maybe now they will not exactly die. (Third)

Third. Now things that was tiggered at second happen. Now the healer that performed the heal can die cuz of heretic, and if warrior hit swordsman and martyr, the healer will still loose the ability cuz of parry even if the warrior is going to loose anyway cuz of martyr. Now mourner still give life to allyes, even if he will die on reckoning too. Mourner lament and heretic reckoning would "cancel" each other now.

It is very easiest than actual tigger system. That looks complex cuz of i made all possible things to happen. Looks easyer if i simple say that: First attaks, later tiggers from attacks/damage/death. Then such effects happens.

Also, in 2 dracolichs i cant see a solution. Maybe remove ranking points from both, cuz of wasting 550$ with second dracolich :P. lol. Kidding. I like it alternated. Last dracolich to deploy would get the first risen one.

I dont think the healer thing could be counter-intuitive. With this system, healer would heal completely the ally if the survives after all attacks in stack. Also if 2 units affected by damage in same stack, they are all healed. If warrior attack swordsman and martyr, the healer ability is spent, no matter if the warrior dies anyway with martyr.

As my proposal tigger system, as much as things that happen once per turn (Healers, acolyte, shield maiden, archangel's aegis) happen to all units affected in a stack, martyrs should kill both of pikemans. Also if another unit that is not a martyr was killed by both, both will get in range of confessor.

Feathered serpents would make all units return to castle when all die in a fireball, warrior attack, lancer attack, etc.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 01:53:40 PM by Kran »

Kran

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2009, 02:05:18 PM »
In my tigger system, Warrior and longbowman would attack the heretic, so, it will die. Heretic reckoning tiggers only once, cuz its would be tiggered by damace per stack. If people do not understand the tigger system it will simple make heretic get hurt by 5+3, longbowman life reduced by 1 and warrior dead. Thats exactly what people is talking about, i just writed everything formally. Hope I can get some opine about it.

glunkr

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2009, 02:42:28 PM »
I think Kran has a good point about lumping together damage that happens at the same time, such as unit+longbowman and spearman+tower. That makes sense.  I think it is fair for the martyr to kill two spearmen if they both attack it simultaneously. It also seems fair that the heretic only gets to lower life once for two simultaneous attacks. And I also don't mind if healing occurs after the simultaneous attacks. The Feathered Serpent might be slightly overpowering if it makes lots of units return... but who knows, it might be ok. In reality, it wouldn't return more than 1 unit very often.

If that isn't desirable, then it would be best to implement some kind of common-sense "tie-breaker." Perhaps you could break a tie by range. So if a tower hits a unit from range 3 and a spearman hits the unit from range 1, the spearman hits before the tower for tie-breaking purposes. I don't know how to break a tie between two spearmen that attack from identical range though.

For the dracolich, why not make the risen units go to the player who made the kill? So if my ally and I both have a draco, but my unit makes the kill I will get the risen unit.

Kran

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2009, 03:15:46 PM »
Man! How i did not thought about giving unit to who make the kill! About the FS, i think it would still be fine. We allmost dont see FS in constructed, so, this little boost will not cause overpowered.
The tie-broke is nice, but becouse of same range ties, that would get complicated. If closer units attack first, so, the unit that is far will attack later. That would cause 2 hits, and in a tie, what could happen? 1 hit only? What happens with the acolyte? Its underpowered now, just a bit. With this tigger system, the acolye could reduce all damage inflicted in the stack to 0. Thats a little, almost imperceptible boost. The greater change would be in pikeman, tower, martyr, lancer, warrior, longbowman, heretic, healer.

zatikon

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2009, 10:03:53 PM »
Damage/healing application could be a phase of empty-stack resolution, before the check for death phase.

Kran

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2009, 03:32:50 AM »
For the dracolich, why not make the risen units go to the player who made the kill? So if my ally and I both have a draco, but my unit makes the kill I will get the risen unit.

Thinking well, that cant be used. Who would take the risen unit if two pikemans one mine other ally kill the enemy? Maybe the best sollution be alternating anyay... Anyway i think that will be very rare.

zatikon

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2009, 09:26:19 AM »
The Dracolich puzzle exposes a deeper problem though: mutually exclusive triggers. The alternation solution is the only thing I can think of to solve it.

Kran

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Re: Triggers
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2009, 07:36:16 PM »
The old dracolich could help resolving some problems. Else this unit means a complete loss in 1v1. Maybe 3 actions, maybe more life. With 550$ less points to spend, thats hard to cause trades, enemy will allways cause pressure and make you retreat... until you cant anymore. It need something enought good to cause pressure, something that would make allyes to support pressure and counter-attack.