Author Topic: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)  (Read 20471 times)

Kran

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2009, 01:42:53 PM »
In X amount of turns (maybe 10) Spirit will revert back to Magus form and will be tapped.

That looks a good idea to me. I do not think 10 turns would be enought, maybe 20 turns. 10 turns is not enought to do anything with a slow magus.

Lunaraia

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 07:48:25 PM »
Sounds more fear, but it can leave the magus in quite the pickle, perhaps indistructable unit the beginning of his next turn so that he can get of 1 last act?, and add a Recharge to his spirit ability that way u can atleast try to get him to safety ^^
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Rudolf

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2009, 09:55:58 AM »
It took me a while to gather up enough courage to post in this thread since I am far more inexperienced than you guys, but here it is:

Magus/Spirit: How about returning to castle after 10 turns? So it is mostly used to protect the Magus and stop gap defense (when rushed), not destroy an opponent's low armor army. In return, allow it to move the turn it is changed into spirit form.

Artificer: change existing spell to: repair all allied inorganics up to 2 damages. Also change existing spell to: increase armor of one inorganic unit by 1. Add new spell: completely repair one inorganic unit. Also add new spell: create guardian once per game: Guardian= 2 life, 2 armor, 3 power, range 2, inorganic, immobile. This should make it more versatile but less extreme when used with a golem (or other high life units) army.

Hydra: cannot be rallied, but attacks use no more than one command (free after first attack).

Warrior: +2 damage to inorganics. Do not gain action points on killing inorganics.

Wyvern: devour works on inorganics. eggs are inorganic, 1 armor and 3 life.



Lunaraia

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2009, 10:39:17 AM »
Wyvern = agree, Warrior = powerful enough as it is, it's not suppose to be able to wipe out golems in 1 go by ignoring their armor, also it dosn't gain actions from killing inorgs, Artificer= what u suggest makes it even more powerful then it already is XD Hydra= would remove some pretty nasty exploits, but the implimention of something like free after 1 use would be pretty hard, not to mention overpowered Magus = would be a posibility, but im not sure if that'd be doable since the spirit is immune to everything, this would also include it's own abilities
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Norsker

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2009, 11:55:41 AM »


Magus/Spirit: How about returning to castle after 10 turns? So it is mostly used to protect the Magus and stop gap defense (when rushed), not destroy an opponent's low armor army. In return, allow it to move the turn it is changed into spirit form.
I suppose I'm of the general dissenting opinion that I don't think there's any problem with the current incarnation of the spirit;  there are very few situations in which I would prefer to deal with magus stun/wisps rather than the same magus in spirit form.  

I think your suggestion might be actually make the magus/spirit more powerful;  right now, swapping to spirit form is a very drastic move that a player should take awhile to consider.  If you could get the spirit to return back to the castle, you would only need to temporarily forsake wisps/stun while you go pick off your opponent's weaker units.  

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Artificer: change existing spell to: repair all allied inorganics up to 2 damages. Also change existing spell to: increase armor of one inorganic unit by 1. Add new spell: completely repair one inorganic unit. Also add new spell: create guardian once per game: Guardian= 2 life, 2 armor, 3 power, range 2, inorganic, immobile. This should make it more versatile but less extreme when used with a golem (or other high life units) army.  
High life armies tend to be relatively easy to maneuver around, and the artificer is quite susceptible to a rush armies.  It might be a tad strong in 1v1 situations, but less so that a conjurer or wizard.  I do, however, dislike the fact that it 'completely' shuts down a wide variety of units(spellcasters/units that stun/fanatic/units that poison).  I might be amenable to a cheaper artificer that cannot make units inorganic, or for a weaker 'inorganic' ability, whereby units because invulnerable only to spells.

It's also unfortunate that the almost guaranteed presence of an artificer in 2v2 limits one's ability to bring spellcasters in.  As a side note, I would love to see a 'random' version of 2v2;  power combos are way to dominant in the current format.


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Hydra: cannot be rallied, but attacks use no more than one command (free after first attack).
I would propose a slight alteration;  when the hydra attacks, all available heads necessary to kill the target attack(e.g., if a unit would take two hydra attacks to kill, a the hydra would have two fewer heads available)

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Warrior: +2 damage to inorganics. Do not gain action points on killing inorganics.
While I believe that infantry in general are unwieldy, this seems somewhat arbitrary.  

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Wyvern: devour works on inorganics. eggs are inorganic, 1 armor and 3 life.

I gather that you've had some bad experiences with inorganics. ;)

This doesn't rectify the fundamental problem with the wyvern;  it's a terrible unit against pretty much any army because almost every army can either kill it or disable it before it can escape and reproduce.



[/quote]
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 12:01:52 PM by Norsker »

Rudolf

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2009, 12:53:46 AM »
Lunaraia/Norsker,

Thank for the feedbacks.

Quote
Warrior = powerful enough as it is, it's not suppose to be able to wipe out golems in 1 go by ignoring their armor/quote]

Shouldn't the warrior be more powerful than the golem 1 on 1 since it is organic and vulnerable to spells/stun/poison etc.? Right now the Golem has an edge (move within 2 to warrior and warrior has to retreat or lose the exchange)

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I gather that you've had some bad experiences with inorganics./quote]

That may be very true  ;)
but it is more the case that I share your view that:

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I do, however, dislike the fact that it 'completely' shuts down a wide variety of units(spellcasters/units that stun/fanatic/units that poison)./quote]

logically inorganics shouldn't be affected by poison/spells (and poison/spells are somewhat overpowered against organics, so need inorganics to compensate). Hence my solution of making units like warrior and wyvern, which are also less effective against inorganics, more "anti-inorganic" and compensate by a more versatile (and maybe stronger) Artificer.

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I believe that infantry in general are unwieldy/quote]

I agree, especially they need a lot of commands to be effective. For that reason I think sergeant should stay the way it is now (bar Hydra).

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I would propose a slight alteration;  when the hydra attacks, all available heads necessary to kill the target attack(e.g., if a unit would take two hydra attacks to kill, a the hydra would have two fewer heads available)/quote]

I like this.

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This doesn't rectify the fundamental problem with the wyvern;  it's a terrible unit against pretty much any army because almost every army can either kill it or disable it before it can escape and reproduce./quote]

If the challenge facing the wyvern is completely rectified, then it would become too strong!  ;)
Hence my proposal of making the challenge easier but not vanish. Maybe I didn't go far enough and the wyvern need to have one extra range (either making devour anywhere <=2 or move 4), but I would have thought that with my changes and with suitable support it can be reasonably effective against any non-spellcasting army


Lunaraia

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2009, 03:14:28 AM »
well rudi, when u are a warrior with a matchstick like swordand are facing down a 12 ft. golem of pure iron and fists the size of a trash can (the big ones) who do you think are gonna win?
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Rudolf

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2009, 07:20:29 AM »
Quote
well rudi, when u are a warrior with a matchstick like swordand are facing down a 12 ft. golem of pure iron and fists the size of a trash can (the big ones) who do you think are gonna win?/quote]

Of course I would win! You didn't know that Rudolf is a great warrior and would never be stopped by something like a golem!  :D

In fact any true warrior should win. The golem is slow while the warrior is nimble and has high perception gained from countless battles. So if he get to attack first he'll hit the critical part of the golem (isn't that the rune on its tommy that animates the iron heap?) - it takes two hits to completely deface the rune - before the golem get the chance to react.

 ;D


Norsker

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2009, 02:41:16 PM »
Lunaraia/Norsker,

Thank for the feedbacks.



Shouldn't the warrior be more powerful than the golem 1 on 1 since it is organic and vulnerable to spells/stun/poison etc.? Right now the Golem has an edge (move within 2 to warrior and warrior has to retreat or lose the exchange)

The golem is a very slow unit that is pretty easy to harass( an effective attack range of 2 isn't very much), or surround and kill as necessary;  its primary value is  to provide some cover for other advancing units by forcing the enemy army to either focus on it(leaving the other units unscathed)  or take at most one shot before falling back to avoid being crushed by the golem.   Keep in mind that the golem, after taking damage, very rarely has the opportunity to regain it;  organic units can be healed by the templar, acolyte, abjurer, druid, quartermaster, healer, and alchemist.  Bringing down a golem supported by artificer heals is frustrating if you only have low power units to attack it, but think of it this way;  golem + artificer cost 550 points-this should leave you a lot of leeway to move around the board with your cheap weak units and take out that artificer.  Some constructed armies may be able to support golem + artificer, but hey, that's why I play random for rated games(Too much rock-paper-scissors)  .

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I gather that you've had some bad experiences with inorganics./quote]

That may be very true  ;)
but it is more the case that I share your view that:


logically inorganics shouldn't be affected by poison/spells (and poison/spells are somewhat overpowered against organics, so need inorganics to compensate).
 

While an army with at least one spellcaster will do better than one with none, I'm not sure I'd agree that they're overpowered(at least as an aggregate)

Quote
Hence my solution of making units like warrior and wyvern, which are also less effective against inorganics, more "anti-inorganic" and compensate by a more versatile (and maybe stronger) Artificer.

While some units will have an edge over others, I dislike the idea of 'rock-paper-scissors' balancing of units.

Make sure you include the left bracket when you're quoting;  there are a lot of quote]s there.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 02:47:19 PM by Norsker »

Lunaraia

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2009, 09:55:11 PM »
acually the runes of power are for safety reasons placed inside the golem so they can't be distorted that easely, + those runes are usually made out of diamonds, would like to see an iron sword distort that ^^
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Rudolf

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2009, 01:26:29 AM »
Lunaraia,
acually the runes of power are for safety reasons placed inside the golem so they can't be distorted that easely, + those runes are usually made out of diamonds, would like to see an iron sword distort that ^^

Not possible.  :)

The runes need to be drawn or chiselled onto the Golem and has to be on the surface because the Golem is solid metal and not hollow. ;D

More seriously,

Norsker,

I am not saying that the golem cannot be countered, but that it has an advantage against the other 200pt melee only unit (warrior) 1 on 1 even though the golem is inorganic. I take your point that being inorganic means it cannot be healed in the absence of the artificer, but it still amounts to a great advantage given how powerful some spells/abilities are (and sometimes they ARE accompanied by an artificer even in random). It is true that the warrior has its own much feared ability, but it is also one of the long list of units that fare worse against inorganics - precisely the sort of "rock/paper/scissors" characteristic that you dislike. My suggestion makes the warrior equally effective against inorganics (but in the different way) and so actually reduce the "rock/paper/scissors" characteristic of the game.

I agree that spellcasters need support units to be effective (or to survive) and we seem to agree that a spellcaster, at least in combination with other units, has the advantage over (or more powerful) than a non-spellcasting army. The fact is that spellcasters, with the notable exception of the warlock and the alchemist, are more effective against organic units. In the extreme case of the witch and geomancer, they are ONLY effective against organic units. What I am suggesting is that having non-spellcasting units like wyvern and warrior (maybe even martyr and possessed - but that would be non-thematic  ;)) also less effective against inorganics is one reason the game is too "rock/paper/scissors" like. Hence my suggestion to make these units equally effective against inorganics. The specifics I suggested might be off the mark, but I think my general concept is sound.

(Still don't know how to quote individual passages correctly, so left the quotes out  ;))




mongolian

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2010, 12:40:22 PM »
I'd like to devote my next update on units to the real core basic units I'd like to see changed. Most of the units I want tweeked because they just aren't good enough in comparison to their neighbors.

Bowman
Currently: 3/1,
Revised: 4/0 or 3/2 (or even 2/2 with 3 actions). Another option is just making it cost $100 and bring it up to 4/1, 3hp.

Warrior
Currently: $200, 5/2, 5hp
Revised: Either bring it down to $150 with 4hp or it gets +1hp for the $200 version.

Armory
Currently: Give all units +1/+1
Revised: Give all units +1/+1 and Armory will only have 1 permanent target (range1) for a unit to have +1 power.  Armory can undo's it's choice to make another choice, but only 1 target can be used a turn.

Wyvern
Currently: Lay an egg (range 1)
Revised: Lay an egg (range 2)






Chronic Logic - Josiah

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2010, 10:09:25 AM »
Agree with everything except the bowman.  The bowman is extremely useful at 50 points.  They can take out an archery one on one and it's hard to defend against more then one of them.

mongolian

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2011, 05:01:26 PM »
Diplomat is currently one of the most dramatic units in the game. Ideally I'd like to see it receive a new ability vs have your opponent be completely helpless in 1 turn.  One of two things should happen:
(1) You can not activate the diplomat's special ability unless you have used no actions on attacking this round or
(2) Change diplomat's price tag to $250-300

I really would like to see archangel's price tag also jump +$50

Chronic Logic - Josiah

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Re: Update* on Units that need to be tweeked (over/under powered)
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2011, 10:49:24 AM »
I agree the Diplomat could use a change.  I think the idea about not being about to attack and then use Armistice is a good one.