Chronic Logic

My idea: allow units to be bought and sold during a game.

Rules:

1. each sale or purchase cost 1 command point.
2. only undeployed units can be sold.
3. total army cost remain at 1000 or less after each purchase.
4. army can start game with less than 1000 pt total cost.

Might even work with random. 

No idea how easy or difficult it would be to implement.

What do other players think?

Should the strength potion be changed to add 3 (or even 4) to a unit's damage as opposed to giving it instant kill? (give dragons and golems a chance! )

Thanks for the feedbacks.

Quote from: Lunaraia on October 14, 2009, 08:40:26 PM
next time we both are on ask me -^_^- I kinda run the Zatikon  School for Newbies, just ask and i'll answer to the best of my ability

Have no fear. I shall hunt you down 

Quote from: Norsker on October 14, 2009, 10:47:34 PM
I agree that the artificer's 'make permanently inorganic' probably needs to go.  Maybe a temporary inorganic status? Personally, I think the artificer should be downgraded to 250 points, have a 'make temporarily inorganic' ability, the ability to add armor to inorganics, and the ability to heal one inorganic at a time.

I don't think units that are inorganic by default pose a serious balance issue, if any. 

I agree that default inorganic (siege) units do not pose a balance issue on their own.

I am not sure if reducing the cost of an artificer is desirable from the constructed point of view. I quite like the simplicity of having all mages 350pts. It forces players to make hard choices as to how they want to shape their army. Reducing the cost, even seemingly compensated by reduced function, might lead to unexpected overpowered combinations.

Quote from: Kran on October 20, 2009, 03:59:40 PM
I would prefer it summoning innorgs than making normal units innorganic.

I am glad that you agree with me. At the minimum such would fit the term "artificer" better. Someone that changes normal units to inorganics would fit my understanding of a cyborg, not an artificer. 

Any chance of a new patch anytime soon?

I agree with many others that new units are not essential, but tweaking some existing units is.

I took a look at units that fare less well against inorganics. The following is the list. They range from those that only have minor handicaps against inorganics like the druid (cannot stun) to those that becomes completely ineffective like the priest. The total is 33 units, of which about 10 is rendered virtually completely useless by inorganics. The latter group also includes some very expensive units.

It seems to me that the list is too long. The game need to either:

1) reduce the list;
2) introduce some cheap units that are more effective against inorganics than organics;
3) modify the spells of the artificer;
4) some combination of the three above

Obviously there are many ways to implement this even if one agrees with my point of view. So I'll throw in some ideas to start the discussion rolling:

New Artificer: Remove spell to change units into inorganics. Limit range of healing inorganics to 3. Limit range of armor +1 for inorganics to 2. Add new spells:
a) Summon Flying Bomber (inorganic, flight, Life 2, 1 action. Explodes on death with damage 4. Skill: kill self)
b) Summon Tinman (inorganic, Life 4, power 3, 3 actions. attack adjacent, 1 action)
c) Summon Guardian (inorganic, Life 4, power 5, 2 actions. vigiliant. attack adjacent, 1 action)
[So it's mainly an inorganic unit generator and so fit its name better]

New unit Cyborg Master (350 pts):
inorganic, Life 5, Armor 2, power 5, 3 actions. Move and attack 3 sq away (same as footman) 1 action. spell: change unit into inorganic, range 1, 3 actions. spell: one inorganic unit gets +1 power for one turn, range 4

I am not very experienced in zatikon and would like to hear the views of more experienced players.

The List:
priest
syco
confessor
heretic
martyr
mourner
possessed
cavalry
chieftain
druid
geo
shaman
assassin
bounty hunter
rogue
scout
changeling
mimic
skinwalker
axeman
footman
warrior
dracolich
wyvern
All mages except warlock, artificer, and alchemist

Lunaraia,

Quote from: Lunaraia on October 11, 2009, 03:55:11 AM
acually the runes of power are for safety reasons placed inside the golem so they can't be distorted that easely, + those runes are usually made out of diamonds, would like to see an iron sword distort that ^^

Not possible. 

The runes need to be drawn or chiselled onto the Golem and has to be on the surface because the Golem is solid metal and not hollow.

More seriously,

Norsker,

I am not saying that the golem cannot be countered, but that it has an advantage against the other 200pt melee only unit (warrior) 1 on 1 even though the golem is inorganic. I take your point that being inorganic means it cannot be healed in the absence of the artificer, but it still amounts to a great advantage given how powerful some spells/abilities are (and sometimes they ARE accompanied by an artificer even in random). It is true that the warrior has its own much feared ability, but it is also one of the long list of units that fare worse against inorganics - precisely the sort of "rock/paper/scissors" characteristic that you dislike. My suggestion makes the warrior equally effective against inorganics (but in the different way) and so actually reduce the "rock/paper/scissors" characteristic of the game.

I agree that spellcasters need support units to be effective (or to survive) and we seem to agree that a spellcaster, at least in combination with other units, has the advantage over (or more powerful) than a non-spellcasting army. The fact is that spellcasters, with the notable exception of the warlock and the alchemist, are more effective against organic units. In the extreme case of the witch and geomancer, they are ONLY effective against organic units. What I am suggesting is that having non-spellcasting units like wyvern and warrior (maybe even martyr and possessed - but that would be non-thematic  ) also less effective against inorganics is one reason the game is too "rock/paper/scissors" like. Hence my suggestion to make these units equally effective against inorganics. The specifics I suggested might be off the mark, but I think my general concept is sound.

(Still don't know how to quote individual passages correctly, so left the quotes out  )

Quotewell rudi, when u are a warrior with a matchstick like swordand are facing down a 12 ft. golem of pure iron and fists the size of a trash can (the big ones) who do you think are gonna win?/quote]

Of course I would win! You didn't know that Rudolf is a great warrior and would never be stopped by something like a golem! 

In fact any true warrior should win. The golem is slow while the warrior is nimble and has high perception gained from countless battles. So if he get to attack first he'll hit the critical part of the golem (isn't that the rune on its tommy that animates the iron heap?) - it takes two hits to completely deface the rune - before the golem get the chance to react.

Lunaraia/Norsker,

Thank for the feedbacks.

QuoteWarrior = powerful enough as it is, it's not suppose to be able to wipe out golems in 1 go by ignoring their armor/quote]

Shouldn't the warrior be more powerful than the golem 1 on 1 since it is organic and vulnerable to spells/stun/poison etc.? Right now the Golem has an edge (move within 2 to warrior and warrior has to retreat or lose the exchange)

QuoteI gather that you've had some bad experiences with inorganics./quote]

That may be very true 
but it is more the case that I share your view that:

QuoteI do, however, dislike the fact that it 'completely' shuts down a wide variety of units(spellcasters/units that stun/fanatic/units that poison)./quote]

logically inorganics shouldn't be affected by poison/spells (and poison/spells are somewhat overpowered against organics, so need inorganics to compensate). Hence my solution of making units like warrior and wyvern, which are also less effective against inorganics, more "anti-inorganic" and compensate by a more versatile (and maybe stronger) Artificer.

QuoteI believe that infantry in general are unwieldy/quote]

I agree, especially they need a lot of commands to be effective. For that reason I think sergeant should stay the way it is now (bar Hydra).

QuoteI would propose a slight alteration;  when the hydra attacks, all available heads necessary to kill the target attack(e.g., if a unit would take two hydra attacks to kill, a the hydra would have two fewer heads available)/quote]

I like this.

QuoteThis doesn't rectify the fundamental problem with the wyvern;  it's a terrible unit against pretty much any army because almost every army can either kill it or disable it before it can escape and reproduce./quote]

If the challenge facing the wyvern is completely rectified, then it would become too strong! 
Hence my proposal of making the challenge easier but not vanish. Maybe I didn't go far enough and the wyvern need to have one extra range (either making devour anywhere <=2 or move 4), but I would have thought that with my changes and with suitable support it can be reasonably effective against any non-spellcasting army

It took me a while to gather up enough courage to post in this thread since I am far more inexperienced than you guys, but here it is:

Magus/Spirit: How about returning to castle after 10 turns? So it is mostly used to protect the Magus and stop gap defense (when rushed), not destroy an opponent's low armor army. In return, allow it to move the turn it is changed into spirit form.

Artificer: change existing spell to: repair all allied inorganics up to 2 damages. Also change existing spell to: increase armor of one inorganic unit by 1. Add new spell: completely repair one inorganic unit. Also add new spell: create guardian once per game: Guardian= 2 life, 2 armor, 3 power, range 2, inorganic, immobile. This should make it more versatile but less extreme when used with a golem (or other high life units) army.

Hydra: cannot be rallied, but attacks use no more than one command (free after first attack).

Warrior: +2 damage to inorganics. Do not gain action points on killing inorganics.

Wyvern: devour works on inorganics. eggs are inorganic, 1 armor and 3 life.

Tested it with Lunaraia and confirm:

Mason cannot capture castle if climbing down from wall

Mason can capture castle if moving normally

Thanks for the feedbacks.

Thanks.

Fair point.

Thanks for the feedback.

Could someone enlighten me as to how this could be done?

What do people think about the extent of the advantage for the player moving first?