Chronic Logic

Quote from: mongolian on December 11, 2009, 07:05:24 PM
Lastly, I think the game needs to get simpler, but it's difficult to say as it means lots of changes.  I think the combat system is fine.  Even more so, It would be nice to see more of the basic stats written out more.  Zatikon needs to survive as a game of many units where users have the option to read what a unit does but majority of the time users should not be needed to read what a unit does.  The current system still doesn't work that way, even after playing for a long time.  It's clear a Horse in chess moves like in a "L".  It's clear a warlock can hit something within 5 and that a summoner will make more units, but if I have to click to read that a warlock does different damage from a straight line that hits 6 or click to read the stats of the summoner's summons, I feel Zatikon will never get grandiose.  An abjurer simply only needs to unsommon 1 thing within 5, no need to write or have it do anything more.  A Knight could simply kill anything without armor and automatically kill anything with 2 hits, but he won't have any other abilities, nor should I click to have to find out how much hit points units have.  I'm sure I'm over exaggerating things, but It's also good to keep questioning the way we think about Zatikon.

I agree

Quote from: Lunaraia on December 10, 2009, 09:49:45 PM
zatikon is fine as it is, id be very disappointed if they changed the way things worked

The whole point is that Zatikon is not fine how it is. The total player pool shows that. We might disagree how to improve Zatikon – whether it's a better GUI, different playing mode, different units, or more structural changes as I have stated – but I think it should be clear that Zatikon needs a lot more tweaking or 5 years from now it will be the same old thing in the forum – why can't I find anybody to play on this game?

Quote from: mongolian on December 10, 2009, 04:59:05 PM
About 'email Zatikon', I'm not sure what you mean, but I don't see much purpose for creation of something similiar.  At that point, just make a new game which is not the correct response.

Before email existed, old Chess Grandmasters use to have 100's of chess games going on at once, by normal mail. They would make a move, write it down on some paper, put it in an envelope and then post it to their opponent. Their opponent would then get the letter a few days or weeks later, see what move their opponent made, make their next move, and then post their move back.

One of the great things about turn-based strategy games, unlike real time strategy games, is that you have the possibility of not having to sit down at a game and play non-stop until the game is finished. That type of thing puts many people off, especially older gamers, who have families and work. So play by email allows you to just make a move or a few moves a day, and then finish the game the next day or over the next few days. And if you truly want a game to be global, it would have to be a turn-based game by email. You might come home from work there in America and your ready to have a game with me, however you can't, because it's 2 am in the morning over here in Britain and I'm asleep. Unless I've been partying and I'm awake; but then I'd be drunk and you would easily beat me.

Sometimes I've logged on to Zatikon and there is not one person on playing. From the forums it seems like some people have had similar problems. But the thing is that were logging on in our own time zone. Imagine if time zones didn't matter anymore and everybody in the world is available to play. With email Zatikon this is possible. You get home from work and you have our game were playing together waiting for you in your account. You make your move. When I wake up, I then see the move you have made, and then I make my move. If we happen to be online at the same time, then we can basically play live, for unlike the old Chess Grandmasters and their envelopes, email is instant. You make a move over there in America and here in England I will see it instantly.

With the Chess site I belong to, I have played people from all over the world. I wake up and go into my account, then make my move against you in America. But I don't just sit around and wait for you to wake up and then make your move; I then go on to one of the other 30 games I'm playing at the same time, which are all waiting for my move to be made. I then make my move with the guy I'm playing in Japan. Then with the guy in South Africa. Then with the guy in Sweden etc. By the time I've finished making all the moves I had to, somebody has already logged in and made another move. With this set up you will never be lost for play. The only problem with this set up is that you might have too many games to play and Zatikon will be frying on your brain! But again, this sort of setup can only be done with turn-based games. So turn-based developers, take advantage!  

It might be hard to visualise what I'm saying, especially if you have never played turn-based games by email before. So what you should do is go and join the Chess site I belong to at www.mychess.de . It is free and I believe you can play up to 3 games at once. If you're a member you can play like 30 games at once. Even if you don't feel like playing Chess, just join for the sake of Zatikon and try it out. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain!  
 

Quote from: mongolian on December 10, 2009, 04:59:05 PM
I've addressed many of your points, but I will reiterate: GAMERS DON'T READ. They don't like to read the units or interpret the abilities, let alone read how to play.  Click now, ask later.  Which is why gamers are more interested to see a lame animation of pieces attacking one another rather then have a function.  Look how popular a game like Dofus became.   But, I feel like Zatikon needs to go in between what it is now and what the new real time strategy game Chronic Logic came up with.  Basically, the game should have functions & animations like a SNES game.  Look at games like SNES: Ogre Battle or Command & Conquer'ish type games.  Or even better, the classic Starcraft/Warcraft.  Why can't Zatikon use similiar graphics in a turn based Zatikon concept?  I know there are a few games floating around with better graphics like this and worse gameplan for turn based games.

What I've always believed to be a better solution then better in-game graphics, is the opposite end, making the game 'feel' simpler.  Even if Zatikon didn't use 'sprites', isn't it possible to simplify the units and the unit system?  Can't the game split up complex units into 2-3 units, simplify the combat system?  A game that I've recently got into which I think heavily relates to this topic is 'Battalion Arena' found on www.kongregate.com  Just look at the animations/combat system.  

Concerning reading things in a game; I don't think that should be a problem. People who play turn-based games usually like to think more then the real time shoot 'em up gamers. If you have a gold fish brain and you don't want to think or read, or you can't read, and you just want to click and kill things, then turn-based games are probably not for you. The most popular contemporary turn-based games are the Civilization series. And there is huge amount of reading in that. You basically can get a whole history lesson every time you play the game. But that to me gives the game more depth and makes the game more educational. I would personally love for the Zatikon crew to give us a lot more to read. Give us a wiki on the units; with like a whole page for each unit - Its history, strengths, weaknesses, what it does on its days off when it's not killing other units in battle. That would make the game more educational and give it more of a cult following.  

Now when you're in the mist of battle; that is when you don't want to have a lot to read. If you have to do some reading when battling then you want to be able to scan it quickly and get every thing you want in an instant. But I think the Zatikon crew have done very well with this. The boxes with the units give you everything you need to know in the briefest form available. I'm not sure how you can improve on that.

Yes, if this game ever is going to fully spread in today's world, then the graphics will have to be improved. However I don't think this should be the main priority at the moment. There are far more important things to change first.

Agents and publishers usually tell a writer to pick a genre and then do something a little bit different in it. If you're in a genre then it is easier to sell the book, because people are familiar with the genre and it is easy to market something that already has a popular foundation set up. The problem is when things come out that don't fit a particular genre. Then people are not familiar with it and can't connect with it. Very few people are brave enough to try something completely new.  I think Zatikon has done quite well in that in has connected itself to Chess, the most popular game ever. However the problem with that is that people will then start comparing Zatikon to the most popular game ever. Is Zatikon like Chess? Is Zatikon better than Chess? Is it worst? Is Zatikon Chess evolved?

Zatikon has to know what it is. And if it connects itself to something it has to make sure it resembles that something it's connected itself to. If not then people will not connect or relate to the game, and then they move on to something more familiar.

I don't think Zatikon is enough like Chess. But I think the Zatikon crew should try to make Zatikon more like Chess, because that's where you will get the players from – from the Chess player population, not the real time strategy games or the giant turn-based games population. Zatikon can not compete with the likes of Warcraft, Command and Conquer, or Civilization. However it can compete with Chess. Chess is an old game and can not make use of contemporary computer technology like Zatikon can. But nobody has trumped Chess yet. And Chess has a bigger game population then Warcraft, Command and Conquer, and Civiliztion combined! There is a huge market there. I think the Zatikon developer's goal should be to trump Chess.  

To make Zatikon more like Chess I think I would get rid of Commands. I don't see the point of them. In Chess you move one unit per turn. In Zatikon you have too many moves going on. If you got rid of Commands then how it would work would be that every unit on the board could use up its designated Actions per turn. Every move a unit does cost an Action and every attack a unit does cost an Action. This would make the game more like Chess, make the game less complicated on the surface, and enable players to do better calculations, making the game more complex underneath. But because Zatikon has more interesting units then Chess, it will be better then Chess. It really will be Chess evolved.    

Advertisement will definitely help. However I think the changes need to go deeper if Zatikon is ever going to become popular.

I personally have not really been able to get into this game fully. I have already stated some of the reasons why this might be in past forum posts. But I think the problems I have with the game other newbie's are having too. I have tried to get my little brothers to play this game. Ever since I remember they have been game freaks, and have played every game under the sun. They tell me this game is boring. I said it is not boring; you just have to study it a bit. But they are not interested. And it is not that they are just interested in extreme graphic games. One of them loves Chess, and there are not much graphics there. Their main complaint is that they don't really know what's going on and when they try to figure it out they run out of time because of the time constraints. When you're a newbie you hover over your opponents units, trying to figure out what they can do and where they move to. Then you hover over your own units to see what they can do and where they can move to. Then you have to plan where to move. By that time the newbie is out of time. Then the newbie's reaction is, which was my original reaction, 'this game sucks, let's go play something else.' Giving the newbie some more time to make his move could change the negative reaction into a positive one. I think the first changes to Zatikon should start there.

Mongolian, you have mentioned to me and in some past forums, that this game is too much of a range game and that the game is better with the more basic units then with the very powerful ones. I'm not completely sure what I think of this, because I haven't studied this game enough yet. I did mention that maybe Commands and Actions should be scraped, which would make it less of a range game and less complicated on the surface. But again, this will change the game a lot.

Are some units too powerful in this game and take away from the strategy of the game, and maybe overwhelm newbie's?  

Well of course there is definitely a limit to how powerful a unit can be. If a unit goes over that limit then strategy leaves the game and it becomes boring. For example, let's say you had a unit called 'God'. This unit would not even have to be deployed but was always on the board. He had the power to vanish every single enemy unit into oblivion and he didn't even have to walk into the opponent's castle to win but he could actually make the castle float over to him. This is an extreme case however it is just to highlight that there has to be a limit to how powerful units are or the game gets ridiculous and unplayable.

After reading all the forum entries, it seems that people mostly have a problem with some of the Wyrms. After reading up on all the units I purchased Dracolich, because it looked like the most powerful unit, with its ability to resurrect an enemy to your side when it dies. I seem to easily destroy the AI now with this unit on my side, but I think it might be too powerful.  It doesn't make the game unplayable, like a God unit would, however I think it might take away from the high strategic level of the game. One of the best turn-based games ever, Chess, allows you to gain another player to your team also. In Chess, every pond is a potential Queen. However it is definitely not so easy getting your pond to your opponent's side to Queen.  If it was then the game would go on forever and would be boring.  I think if email Zatikon is ever introduced, in which you would then have as much time as you want to make a move, I can see Dracolich causing huge problems, along with other units that are too powerful. I haven't played any of the other Wyrms yet, however just briefly looking at their descriptions, the Feathered Serpent looks far too powerful, with its ability to heal all friendly units and returning a dead ally back to the castle. I still have only played about thirty games of Zatikon so far, and I would have to play far more before I could make a completely accurate judgement to scrap a unit or not, however to me at the moment, and what I have read from other Zatikon players, is that certain units are just too powerful. I think any unit that can recruit new units as easily as the Dracolich or any unit that can heal its team so easily maybe should go. I know the game tries to balance out the power of the units by making them worth a lot more points, but I'm not sure if that balances them out enough. To me, and it seems too many others, they just take too much of the strategy and skill out of the game.

I'm still here because I'm interested in this games potential, rather then really into the game as it stands now. I'm a writer, or trying to be a writer anyway, and the first thing they teach you in creative writing class is 'murder your darlings.' So you have to cut and cut and cut and let the game or story breath. It is difficult to do, especially if you created something you really like, but if they're not making the story or game flow, then they have to be deleted or the game or story will never go anywhere. Maybe this should be considered for some of the more powerful units in Zatikon. But again, I'm not sure yet.  
 
My advice is first to get rid of the time constraints and set up email Zatikon, and then everybody will be able to really study this game because they will have the time to study the game. Then all the flaws will really start revealing themselves, and once revealed, can start being fixed. But it is all about evolution and progression. Things take time, but with a dedicated collective effort, it can evolve to something great.

Well Xazn has asked me to be the beginner blogger. I told him I'm probably not the best person for it because I'm actually not a huge gamer and still not happy with certain aspects of the game, like the time constraints. And I'm not sure if he has seen my little North Korean comment yet 

Maybe I'll tell him yes, but only as long as I get to post something about the Simpsons once in awhile.   

What? You mean nobody reads these forums! What am I wasting my time for then?   .

Well said Mongolian.

Take care Mate. I'm off to play Beyond Chess!

Sean

First off, I think Josiah's clean up job was wrong and unnecessary. We're not in totalitarian dictatorship North Korea here. This is America (or for me, Britain) one of the greatest Democracies in the world, where people fought and died for freedom of speech, including some of my ancestors.  Forums are all about spreading ideas and creativity. Unless something very offensive pops up, then everything in forums should stay. I'm definitely a bit angry about having some of my things deleted, and Norsker little harmless Simpson comment. I thought it was quite funny and actually provoked me to become more creative and think about how Zatikon could be improved. But my mood has definitely changed now.

This will be my last comment on this forum I make, and hopefully some people see it before Josiah deletes it.

When Mongolian was talking about advertising and YouTube (and he is completely right about this game needing more advertisement) I went to YouTube and searched 'Chess Evolved' to see what popped up, for this is how I found Zatikon, by typing these words in Google. I mentioned this in a previous forum comment but maybe it's deleted now. What popped up was Beyond Chess.

I've actually just started playing Beyond Chess. It is like normal Chess however every time you make a move you also move a square on the board. Beyond Chess offers a whole new level of strategy because the board directly influences play throughout the game. This creates a new arsenal of weapons in addition to those already known by chess players. With new strategies comes new terms like Trenching and Boxing. So when you play Beyond Chess you must always be aware of your surroundings – not just where the pieces are at any given time, but where the squares of the board are also. The location of squares directly effects where pieces can maneuver. A key concept of playing Beyond Chess is manipulating the board to your advantage and to your opponent's disadvantage. By isolating his pieces and rendering them useless, you can paralyze your opponent's ability to threaten.

They give a quote on their website from Frederick the Great to his Generals in 1747:

'I approve of all methods of attacking provided they are directed where the enemy's army is weakest and where the terrain favors them the least.'

Then the developers of Chess Beyond add 'Judging from his quote, Frederick the Great probably would have been a great Beyond Chess strategist. Too bad he was born in the wrong century!'

The developer of the game is actually a Marine. He created the concept of a moveable board to more closely reflect modern warfare and to take Chess to a whole new level never before seen. He even played it in Iraq when he was out there fighting!

He states that 'A true test to one's personal ability is to play in an ever changing environment in which you must think, analyse and adapt using your own creative mind.'

The game takes some getting used to but I think it is brilliant and at the moment I think really does deserve the name 'Chess Evolved'. I think you Zatikon developers should take notice of their website and the things they have achieved: http://www.gobeyondchess.com/pages/home.htm

Of course they are feeding off an original game that has always been and still is immensely popular; however they have definitely done some good advertising. First, as already mentioned, they are snugly under YouTube as 'Chess Evolved'. I think you Zatikon Developers should fight for that spot. Also they have developed a Beyond Chess Strategy Guide PDF document to help out beginning players along with an online tutorial. Zatikon definitely needs something similar.  They also set a day and time for people to jump online and play each other. Concerning your tournament idea, this could be a way you could do it. 'Tuesday night 8pm, everybody online to play their tournament game.' If you don't go online at that time and day then you lose. Some players might argue about what happens if they can't make that time on that day. Well real athletes or tournament Chess players have to show up at the venue and play. If they don't then they have to forfeit. However, if you want to be a bit nicer then you can have each player have like a holiday day off or something. So I think this type of thing could definitely work.

And now, I will leave you Zatikon with these last words:

Healthy competition, will power, creativity and freedom of speech has made America one of the greatest countries in the world. Continue those ideas Zatikon Developers and Zatikon could be one of the greatest games ever made in America.

To all you Zatikon players, keep up all your great comments. The Zatikon developers are lucky to have such dedicated players who offer for free such great ideas and feedback.

I wish you all the best for the future

Sean Gainford

Quote from: Norsker on December 01, 2009, 12:08:39 AM

Quote from: mongolian on November 27, 2009, 03:30:42 AM
Thanks for the long reply sgainford.  I can't stress how wonderful it is to read long well thought out responses. I try not to be detailed with my ideas, therefore letting the developers deviate how they please.  But, I will get more specific:

1.   More Advertising/Marketing. (with budget: gmail/yahoo email advertising), (grassroots: marketing at game/anime conventions, revamping and re-advertising on gamer sites like jayisgames.com, free CD's of game handing around campuses across USA)

If you mean advertising through the actual email interface, that's actually an inefficient allocation of funds.  I went to a conference a few weeks ago and attended a talk given by one of yahoo's marketing researchers, and it turns out the rate of return for email advertising could be as low as 0.  

Well, every time my email advertises some site with a woman hardly wearing any clothes; I always click on it.

Quote from: mongolian on November 29, 2009, 09:55:17 PM
Can someone send me a private message so I can start writing as the strategy gamer? 

Sgainford, I was really hoping to hear you elaborate on the part where you get the girl.  But, your story reminds me of a typical night out in most European cities.  Maybe it's just a universal thing for young guys to be cocky all the time. 

Well I don't feel cocky when I get destroyed in Random mode in Zatikon. 

Yes, somebody hurry up and get Mongolian hooked up on the blog. I have to start learning about this thing called Zatikon strategy.

So I'm at my College pub last night, drinking a few beers, and watch this old man with slick back white hair and two teeth missing from his mouth destroy this young little lady at Pool. Then he looks confidently at me, with his chest raised and says, 'I'm next'. I said let's play a real game, and break out the Chess board from behind the bar. He confidently accepts my challenge. We play Shuffle Chess and I completely destroy him in the first game, check mating him in 10 moves. We play a second game and he's doing much better, periodically rubbing his swollen hands over his slicked back white hair and smiling with his toothless mouth. I'm highly intoxicated by now and I could have sworn at one point I had three Knights. Anyway I start dominating and I don't see his toothless smiles anymore. We get to a point where it is definite that he is going to lose his Knight. The guy then says to me 'it's late now and I have to go.' I said no way! Just wait 5 more minutes and you will have lost. But the guy left! Thinking back on it now though I'm not sure if he left because he was losing or left because I was trying to make out with his cute lady friend at the same time I was playing him. I'm not quite sure.

Anyway, after they all left I had some time to think about Zatikon; the future of Zatikon that is. Imagine instead of whipping out a Chess board you took out a Zatikon board. On your side you would have your 3D image hologram castle and on your opponents side he would have his 3D image hologram castle.  Then you would release your 3D hologram units from your castle and battle it out! And when they killed each other you wouldn't just see them disappear in a little blob like you do now, but you would see them fight in full detail, with the blood and guts and everything. (Don't worry Zatikon crew, I'm not asking you to develop this now; just a futuristic thought.)  

A blog would be great, especially if the likes of Mongolian and Lunaraia were doing the blogging. As a beginner I think I would definitely be able to learn from their blogs.

As for a name for the Blog; what about 'The Zatikon Mind'.  

Quote from: mongolian on November 25, 2009, 06:10:52 PM
Long time ago, I actually made a crucial reccomendation: Trainer mode.  Yes, this game is VERY OVERWHELMING.  I think it actually has a very negative effect on an average player's mind.  I don't know how to "dumb down" the game, but if there was a (1) good youtube like tutorial and (2) a mode of play where you could see how each piece moves, attacks and such.  In this mode, there would only be 1 piece on the entire board.  A testing zone.  Even after saying all this I feel I am underegagerating that this game needs to be more newbie friendly.  So it's a combination of

1. Cleaner/simpler GUI
2. Test zone to see how each piece moves/clicks
3. YouTube-like video tutorials
4. Other?

Hello Mongolian

I've been going through, quite slowly, all the past forum comments and have read a lot of yours. You seem to have some very good ideas and seem to have been very important to the development of this game. It's quite interesting reading all the past forums. It's like your getting a history lesson of the game.

A training mode seems interesting. However just having one player on its own probably won't tell you much about the unit, since how the unit interacts with other units is how you learn about them. I think the best way to learn in this game, and usually with most things, is just to start playing. But then of course you need to know how to play. Playing the AI is a good way to learn, but again, I think mirror armies so that it is not too overwhelming for the newbie. A YouTube-like training video seems like a great idea. Also just something about Zatikon on YouTube is a great idea, especially how much YouTube gets hit every day. I think if you put Zatikon under 'Chess Evolved' on YouTube then it will probably get a bunch of hits. At the moment if you put 'Chess Evolved' in YouTube it pops up with a Chess game in which you can move the squares of the board around in any shape you like. That can't beat Zatikon!

I think why Chess is so popular is because that on the surface it is simple (the rules and how the pieces move), however when you get into the game it is really complicated. I think this is a winning combination. With Zatikon I think it is complicated when you get into the game (which is a good thing) however it is also complicated on the surface (which is a bad thing). So you need to eliminate the latter, as you stated.

I would like to ask you Mongolian, or any other experienced player -- In any given turn, can you calculate all possible moves, or the majority or most important moves your opponent can make? For example, in Chess, if I move my Knight to D6 I can be absolutely positive that my Knight can not be attacked by my opponent. Of course I could blunder or calculate wrongly, however if I calculate correctly, I know for a fact that I can not be attacked. Is this always possible with Zatikon? I have only actually played this game about 30 times, but I have tried to calculate every or most moves, like I would with Chess, and sometimes I can but other times I can't. Or when I try to do some deep planning I usually run out of time. But I think being able to calculate to a high level is important for top strategy games and top competition. Maybe what seems to be making the game seem difficult to me, or to other beginners, is the 'Commands' and 'Actions'. Again in Chess, it is easy to understand on the surface: 'I move here, he can't get me. He moves there, he attacks me.' When you're calculating in Chess all you really need to know is how the pieces move. In Zatikon, it seems like there is just so much to calculate: 'well he could attack me if he uses all his commands ... oh wait, how many actions does he have? ... oh wait, how many commands does he have?' Then you have to look at all the special skills the unit has. Then you have to calculate the units armour. Then you have to calculate the units life. Then you have to calculate what squares the unit can attack, and so on.

Let's say Commands and Actions were scrapped. I know the whole game would have to be revamped if this was done, but let's just say they were. How would the game then work? Well you could have it that every unit you have out can now only be moved once a turn and attack once a turn. So you don't have to worry about commands anymore or actions. All you then have to calculate is the units special talents and skills and its move to target location, along with its life and armour. To me that actually might make the game much more strategic, because you can now fully calculate everything, and less complicated on the surface, which will bring more newbies in.

I could be completely wrong, and maybe should play the game more before I raised this question, or finish reading the past forums, however I'm just curious what you, or others think about the Commands and Actions and how the game would be if they were no longer?

Quote from: Norsker on November 25, 2009, 05:06:47 PM
Eliminating the time constraints is likely to alienate more people than it would draw in;  very few people actually enjoy sitting at their screen for ten minutes doing nothing while their opponent meticulously analyzes(and probably overanalyzes) everything. Back when I played in a chess club, even the most enthusiastic players would take out the timer, because they didn't feel like, or couldn't, play a very protracted game.  I'm also not enthusiastic about the potential being locked into a game when an opponent goes afk indefinitely. While I wouldn't protest a game mode where you can 'save' a game, uploading a move whenever you log in, 'email Zatikon' with a playerbase this size wouldn't work.  Having people in the chatroom when you first log into the game is a comfort, and creates a sense of community when you regularly interact in continuous time with other individuals.

It's pretty rare that I feel the time constraint is inhibiting;  I usually finish plays with 30 seconds or more left on the clock, and am not sure what I would do with the remainder.  The duration of my opponent's turn is perfectly adequate to develop a strategy.

Hello Norsker

I doubt eliminating time constraints would alienate more people. All the major Chess sites have eliminated time constraints and they have thousands of members. When you're playing somebody live you usually don't sit there and take 10 minutes to move. Online Chess is usually played quite fast, probably averaging about 90 seconds per move. This is usually the same when you play somebody at Chess in person. Mostly this is because in certain positions you just don't need that much time to make your move. And also a player feels a bit embarrassed if they take so long for each of their moves. However there are certain positions and points in the game that you really need to do some deep thinking calculations, and you would need definitely more time then 90 seconds. However usually, in Chess that is, you don't spend more then 5 minutes on such a high calibre move. But again, with email Chess that is all eliminated anyway. If you're playing somebody and there taking so long to make a move, you just move to one of the other games your playing, and it doesn't really become a problem. Concerning being locked into a game with somebody that goes AWOL; that doesn't really become a problem either because when somebody puts out an email challenge they would choose from one of the 4 options below:

1 day for 10 turns
10 days for 10 turns
20 days for 10 turns
30 days for 10 turns
40 days for 10 turns

After a player does his 10 turns then it resets back to how many days were set up with the challenge – so you would get 10 turns again for that many days. If somebody doesn't make the designated turns by the designated days then they lose.

Concerning chat rooms; I don't see why this has to disappear. You can still go online and chat to people or chat with people you are having a game with. And again, the email game can be turned into a live game whenever you want, as long as your opponent is online.

I created a layout below to highlight how Zatikon could potentially look or be (I had some graphics but can't insert them properly for some reason):

sgainford           Gold: 286
Rating: 1568
39 x won
21 x lost
5 x drawn

Current Games
Finished Games
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I was Challenged
I Challenged
I want to Challenge
I'm Watching
Tournaments
Lead  a Tournament
Edit Army
Army Archive
New Unit (100 Gold)
Zatikon Clubs
Rating Hall of Fame
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In the 'Current Games' tab you could see every game you are playing. This could be up to 10 games with full members (those who pay something like $9.99 a year, or those who have bought the expansion packs), 5 games with non members and 10 tournament games. You would be able to click on one of your games and see it. There would also be a 'back' button set up, which enables you to go back and see each turn your opponent has made or you have made since the start of the game. This is helpful if you haven't made a move for awhile and just want to refresh your memory as to where your strategy was going. There would also be a 'Live' button that could turn the game live (if your opponent is online that is). To see who is online -- by every game you are playing an online symbol would pop up that would let you know if that person is online. But with the email/offline setup you don't really need to go live anyway, because this is a turn based game and when you just make your move your opponent will be able to see it on the server that it was made.

In the 'Finished Games' tab you could go over all your games you have ever played. This will allow you to see where you went wrong, or right, on each turn, which will enable you to improve your skills.

In the 'I was Challenged' tab you can see who has challenged you and is awaiting your approval, or rejection.

In the 'I Challenged' tab you can see everybody you challenged and are waiting to see if they will be accepted or rejected.

In the 'I want to Challenge' tab you do your challenges. You choose to either challenge a member, a friend (non-member) or make a public challenge in which you play against an unknown player. You can, as stated above, set the time limit, and also set a rating range in which only people in that rating range will see the public challenge you have made. And from reading the forums, it seems like some people don't like certain units, so you could have an option in which you could actually filter out the units you don't like when you make your challenge.

In the 'I'm Watching' tab you can actually watch games that are going on between other people.

In the 'Tournaments' tab you can see what tournaments are going on and join one.

In the 'Lead a Tournament' tab you can create your own tournament. I'm not sure how you can properly organise a tournament with Zatikon in its current format, because everybody would have to be online at that particular time, however with email/offline Zaitkon this is not a problem. You will give a name to the tournament, choose what type of tournament (round- robin etc.), what the time limit is (10 days for 10 turns), Maximum number of participants, set a rating range, set the closing date for the last day people can join, and then set the opening day for when the tournament starts.

This game is hugely complex. I don't even think the top rated players have even touched the surface of this game yet.

Let's compare Zaitkon to Chess, since they resemble each other. Chess has been around for thousands of years and has been analysed and studied thoroughly, especially in the last 100 years. However mastering Chess can take a life time and can only really be done with extreme amount of play and study. And this is with only six different units – Pond, Bishop, Knight, Rook, Queen, and King. There are whole Chess books just about how to use your Bishops to their best effects.

Now to compare that with Zatikon: Zatikon has over a 100 different units!  And I would argue that the weakest unit in Zatikon is actually more complex then the strongest unit in Chess. Of course Zatikon has not been around as long as Chess so it hasn't been analysed or evaluated like Chess has. A lot of this will just come with time. However there is a big set back to this game which will stop it being analysed and evaluated to its full extent, and stop it being as popular or more popular then Chess -- The time constraints. It is a real blow to the game because it doesn't give you the time to discover the full potential of the game. The time constraints really need to be scrapped. At the moment the game is like speed Chess, not real Chess, and that is just sloppy play. Some will disagree with me and probably will say that they don't want to sit around for hours and wait for their opponent to move. However if email play is set up then that won't be a problem (Please see my other comment above on email play). I personally think this game is so complex that it really can't even be properly played unless it is played by email. And for beginning players, who are already overwhelmed with how many units there are and all the units' special skills, when added with hardly any time to make a move and having to rush their move, they just feel inundated.  

To me if the playing mode is not changed and the time constraints not scrapped then the game will only ever be superficial and will not exercise the higher cognitive abilities, which will be a shame, because this game could really be something special.  At the moment, with the time constraints, you mostly spend your time just reacting rather than doing deep planning. This game shouldn't be just some reaction shoot 'em up video game. If there are no time constraints then the game will develop the higher cognitive abilities. With this Zatikon will move from being played on the board, to being played in the mind.

A random set up army for both sides in single player mode against the AI should be set up (and again, mirrored armies so that there are no inequalities, which is paramount for top competition). At the moment I don't have much incentive to change my constructed army against the AI, incorporating weaker units, especially with my powerful Dracolich. But it is very important to play with the weaker units so that you can discover how they work. If not then when you go up against somebody in Random and get stuck with a bunch of weaker units, they will be even weaker because you haven't fully learnt how they work yet. If you could choose a random army with the AI then that would make it much easier to explore different units, and I think make the game more exciting.  If it was mirrored armies with the AI, and with other players in random mode, then that would make things equal at the start of the game. At the moment, if we use the analogy of a competitive race, a player who gets a superior set of units in Random mode at the beginning basically has the equivalent of like a 5 second lead from the starting blocks. It is very hard to catch up to that and beat your opponent. This unfair advantage needs to be eliminated. But also, and maybe more importantly, by having mirrored armies you can see how the AI or other players use the same units you have. For beginners this is very important – learning from better, more experienced players.

I think it is very important to help beginners out in this game as much as possible, because if you don't then you will lose the players when they get frustrated. Then the game doesn't spread. The best way for a beginner to learn is to face a better player then himself. But I don't think this is happening to its full effect in Zatikon, mostly because the armies are not mirrored. If I'm playing a better rated Chess960 player and he pulls out some crazy, hard core combination and destroys me, I go 'WOW!', for he did that with the same pieces/units I possessed. The weaker player then realises and learns what he could potentially do with his own pieces/units. He will then get better.  But for a beginner in Zaitkon it is really overwhelming with how many different units there are and how many different skills each unit possesses. I play somebody in random and they have a completely different army them me, then when they beat me, which has happened the three times I tried playing random, I didn't go 'WOW! That was amazing'. I more like went 'that sucks' because my opponent had all different units and made me feel overwhelmed and made me just think I have no idea what the hell is going on in this game. This kind of reaction makes new players leave and never comeback.

Now I imagine experienced players reading this saying, well, you are just going to have to study the units more. Yes, that's true. However I am a beginner with a beginners mind set at the moment, and even though this game resembles Chess in some respects, it is still very alien to me. I think this game has huge potential and I am thinking about the games retention rate here and its propagation. Top Zatikon players, and probably the game developers, have forgotten how it is to be a beginner in this game, since you have played it so much and have been so involved with its development. At the moment I'm coming from an outside perspective, and I can tell you, from a beginner's perspective this game is overwhelming. I think a beginner who loses to the AI or to a more experienced player in random play with mirrored armies is more likely to be far less overwhelmed and will learn more, by seeing how the AI or experienced player used the same units he possessed. I believe this learning and less overwhelming will keep new players rather than having them become frustrated and go and never come back.

Hello Josiah, and anybody else on the forum that is going to read this (below I pasted my original feedback). Thanks for the response.

Well that all sounds good. It would be great if you could introduce the option of identical random armies again. I think this game could recruit a lot of young generation chess players like myself, but chess players are really into their equality at the start of the game which they believe is an absolute necessity for top competition, and would really appreciate its reintroduction.

It definitely would be a great investment to get a play by email/offline option going. The major Chess sites all have this and people from these sites would definitely be interested in a game that was similar to chess and had a similar layout.

If you introduce the identical random and play by email then I'll advertise your game on my chess community and the other major ones, add your game to some chess program reviews on Amazon, and try to spread it around as best as I can. Anybody reading, this game needs more advertisement and deserves to be played. Let's get the word going!

It seems quite difficult to find your game on the internet. I found it by just typing 'chess evolved' in Google and it was the first game that popped up. I think more and more people are looking for more turn based strategy games that don't involve a bunch of micromanagement, which can make the game slow and boring. I think a popular search request in Google is 'turn-based strategy games' or 'turn-based strategy games like chess' but your site doesn't seem to pop up close to any of the results from these searches. Games that pop up are Conqueror or Lost Admiral Returns, and some of the mainstream ones. I don't think these games can compete with Zatikon but they pop up first. You probably know more about how Google does its ranking then me. I think it has to do with how many links go to the site or something. But typing 'chess evolved' popped your site up at the top. Getting your game to pop up first in the search requests above will definitely be a big plus for the game. But I guess all game creators dream of having their game come up on top of a Google search like that.

Anyway Josiah, and fellow Zatikon players, play on and spread the word!

 
Sean Gainford wrote:
> Hello
>
I would like to compliment you on your game Zatikon. I'm a big shuffle chess player however I have been looking for a game for awhile that could offer similar strategic depth but with added creativity and complexity involving the power of contemporary computer technology. I believe your game has the potential to do this. I just purchased your ad-on Crusades and can't wait to explore the over 40 new units!
>
> I have just a few suggestions though. The randomly generated army option I think would be better if both players ended up with the same randomly generated army. If you get two different randomly selected armies then one player could have an unfair advantage. There are definitely superior units to others in the game and a player with randomly superior units will have the advantage. Making each player have the same randomly generated army at the beginning will put things on equal ground. I play chess960, which is the most popular shuffle chess played, and you can have the positions randomly set up, but each player will have the same random position so that there is no unfair advantage. A player that would have Rooks on the central files and Bishops on the ends compared to a player that has his Rooks stuck on the end files and Bishops stuck in the middle would have the advantage so this type of thing is eliminated by making both sides have the same random setup. 
>
> I also would love to see a play be email option with no time constraints. At the moment when some distraction in the house happens, like screaming kids or a nagging partner, or just somebody knocking on the front door, I have to stop playing, which basically means I lose the game because of the time constraints. Playing by email would eliminate that. Also for people who work all day and can't really play the game until the evening would not have to worry about playing a whole game in one sitting when they might be really tired but could just concentrate on a few moves and then finish the game the next day or over the next few days. Also playing by email will allow more in depth thinking and enable players to really discover the true power of the units and game play because they will have far more time to spend on each turn. And of course you can still continue to play the live version or turn your email game into a live game whenever you want, as long as the opponent is
online, or turn a live game into an email game when ever you want.
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> To challenge somebody by email you could create it so that a player could make a public challenge that any other player could accept. The challenge would be broadcasted on the server and would stay there until somebody accepted. You could also add an option in which the challenger can select a rating range that would limit who could accept his challenge. So for example a player could put a public challenge out for any player with a rating of 1400-1500 to accept the challenge. This means lower level players don't have to go up against top rated players and can slowly advance their skills first, and also top rated players don't have to waste time with players that are beneath them.
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> You could also set up your payment differently, like instead of getting money for the add-ons you could actually make every unit available to everybody, however full members, those who buy a membership that cost something like $9.99 a year, would be able to play up to 10 games at once, and play up to 10 tournaments at once also. With email play it is possible to have so many games going a once. So you're not really sitting around waiting for your opponent to move because one of your 20 opponents will definitely have moved and you'll never be lost for play. And that's another thing - creating tournament play that players could actually set up themselves. People who were not full members would be allowed to only play one game at a time and can't take part in tournaments. And you could only make half of the units available to them also and there rating would not be able to rise or fall either.     
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> Another additional feature that I think would be a plus would be that players would be able to go over their past games. The ability to study their past games would increase a player's strength and the strategic level of the game.
>
> Also I think setting up a Zatikonopedia would be a very good idea, like Civilization 4 has. In this players could search out all the units you have and find information about them. You could have a short history of the unit and then finish off with its strengths, powers and weakness. That would give the game more of a cult following.
>
> Many of the layout ideas above come from the chess site I belong to, www.mychess.de  I think if you adopted a similar layout then Zatikon could move from being good to becoming great and could take over Chess.
>
>
> Anyway, a very good game you have created with huge potential and thank you very much for creating it. 
>
>
> Best Regards
>
> Sean Gainford