Is Zatikon to complex?

[mongolian]

Being a fairly advanced player to Zatikon, one would think that the veterans of this game would have a handle on the game.  And yes, sure we do.  But, I suspect one of this games main flaws is it's complexity.  More specifically, everytime I log on, I am always learning a new way a piece interacts with a new piece.  Granted, this should be a positive experience, but when knowing or not knowing how those two pieces react, it's an unpleasant experience. 

Let's take a look at chess.  All the variables are played out, no surprises in attacks.  But if a rook all of a sudden got a new ability, the game would go topsy turvey.  I think Zatikon is the extreme example here. 

It's very crucial for Zatikon to have the pieces develop into a more balanced mix.  And the game has come a long way from where it was even 6 months ago.  At the same time, basic units are changing, a new piece is added every month and some neuances have changed in some units.  If you just rejoined a few months ago, your going to get a headache learning it all.

So, the game is too complex, I'm fine with that.  But, let's take a look closer.  Why is it I can't figure the answer out to what happens when 2 units attack.  Let's look at matyr vs possessed or matyr vs bounty hunter.  How about which direction a chieftan will let me move?  There are many examples of these scenarios where a player must painstaking figure out this solution only via gameplay.

I don't know how to end this conversation, but all I know is it's getting a bit too toxic playing with so many abilities.  Maybe if units were simpler, maybe if there wasn't so many uber powerful units..I'm not sure there is a correct answer.

[glunkr]

I think some of the appeal of Zatikon is the feeling of discovering something new. Zatikon isn't chess, and that's a good thing. I like playing with pieces that not everyone knows well. I think part of the fun is finding a combination or using a piece in a way that your opponent hasn't yet seen.

In a sense, the inherent complexity of Zatikon makes players more reactive -- you find out that your guys can't move, and then you discover the chieftain in the corner. Or you place your pieces 5 spaces from the warlock and then find out that the sergeant can extend the range to 6. But is that so bad? In games like Magic the Gathering, no one knows every card or realizes all the implications of it (until a killer combo destroyer you), and that's part of the fun. I like the complexity of Zatikon, it helps level the playing field since no one knows everything about the game. If I were to play Bobby Fischer in chess, I would have absolutely no chance of winning. If I were to play a Zatikon master and I developed a tricky combo, I might be able to compete. That is the appeal of Zatikon to me.

And sure, someone can fool you with a cheap trick, but odds are if you play the same player again, you'll be able to figure it out. And I like the fact that 6 months from now, Zatikon will be a different game. That makes it new and fun.

That being said, it might be a good idea for the developers to appeal to people more like mongolian with the "chess mode" or filtered modes that eliminate rare pieces, as has been discussed before. It would also be nice if the rules were a bit more clear in some cases. But I think that will come with time, just like how Magic the Gathering's rules eventually stabilized to be quite clear.

glunkr

[minime]

But I think that will come with time, just like how Magic the Gathering's rules eventually stabilized to be quite clear.

This is the same thing I wanted to write. Mtg had all these kind of problems, but a good rule team solved them(though you cant solve it perfectly ever ). I think Zatikon just needs a good basic framework for the unit interactions (and its rules should be public). So, I'm not really worried because of this, I think that this can be solved sooner or later. I don't think this is the problem of the number of the units, or their complexity (just check the number of cards in mtg and the complexity of the single cards). I think the real problem what comes from the number of the units and their complexity is to know all the units, not to overlook any of their abilities and so on I win and lose lots of games because one of us forget some trivial things(like the power or range of a unit).
The rules framework would be some kind of hierarchy of the effects. How they are stacked, and how they are resolved. What triggers what, and so on. I think programmers are good in this

[Lumen]

I think the complexity of the game makes it rich.  Even though someone might not fully understand how something works immediately, everything is essentially internally-consistent.  If something isn't, it's typically a bug that will be fixed.  Chieftains, for example, prevent things from moving to be more 'distant' than they were.  The way chieftains measure distance is a little strange, but it's exactly the same way all distances are measured in zatikon (namely that the distance is the greatest number of steps required in a lateral direction to get to the chieftain's row or column, or it creates rings that are big boxes).  Quirky rules are fine if players can get used to them.  Learning how they're quirky is a process of discovery.  If people don't want that discovery, they can ask.  I'm sure someone would be happy to answer them.

[travcm]

Complicated rules and units in this game are fine as long as the interaction between units is known in advance.  The rules need to be clear cut so you know how the game will interpret the interaction.  Certain interactions within Zatikon are not consistent, so knowing what will happen becomes a matter of experience rather than knowledge of the rules.

Btw, Magic still has a lot of problem interactions.  The DCI has judges who study the rules and ambiguities so that someone will know the correct answer to "what happens if I...?"

[Jezebeau]

First off, are you talking about the single-player/co-op or competitive game?  I'm willing to admit that the PvAI game is unbalanced, but I don't see an alternative given how difficult and resource-intensive it would be to create a competent AI.  I'm going to speak on behalf of the competitive game.

The complexity of the game is not a flaw, it is its primary feature.  The game is fairly internally consistent (I'm certain heretics are bugged).  The examples of martyr vs. possessed and martyr vs. bounty hunter are not difficult to figure out.  The possessed's ability doesn't kill the martyr, and the bounty hunter has complete immunity.  For a better example of where ability priorities need clarification: what happens if a scout kills a martyr?  Does it return to the castle or die?

The problem with your chess example is that a unit doesn't all of a sudden gain a new ability.  Whatever was going to give it the new ability would have had to have been on the board for at least a turn, and you'd have had the opportunity to see it coming.

Discovery and execution of combination-play is what makes this game worth playing more than twice.  It's high strategy.  Care is obviously being taken to balance new units, and they enrich the game.

[mongolian]

The examples of martyr vs. possessed and martyr vs. bounty hunter are not difficult to figure out. 

For the people who stick around and play the game long enough, figure out all the intricacies is a core part of the game. But don't be mistaken, this is definately a learning experience.  Most people like to just click around, watch the units do their attacks, ask questions later.  I would venture a guess to say that 50% of the people who actually download the game, will barely read what the units even do.  This demographic of gamers that don't read or think, can still be Zatikon's demographic, but it's unlikely.

In advertising, the reason people don't join is called friction.  Friction is anything that may stop a user from using the product.  The main friction comes from seeing that this game looks like it was made in the 90's aka an old game is the big problem.  The other big part is the website.  Gamers simply need to be impressed by a game's graphics to even slightly want to be turned on.  Again, I agree that most people in Zatikon don't care about graphics, but if the game was 3D & had stupid silly graphics, something like Warcraft's website.  It's a no brainer how popular it would become. 

Ok, so what can be done to help reduce some friction.  Aside of making the website's graphics reflect a more medieval or "zatikon" experience, one of the big in-game things could be a trainer mode. 
Here is a great thread that has gone over more things to reduce some friction:

http://www.pontifex2.com/smf/index.php/topic,1099.0.html

[minime]

here is an other thing i can t figure without trying: if i have a strategist, do i get an extra command if an inorganic unit of the opponent attacks? and if my inorganic unit is attacked?
i think this whole inorganic thing is messy.
if i attack an inorganic with a scout the scouts wont go back to the castle.
however if a golem attacks a scout the scout will dodge the destroy effect. both ability are the scout's but one of them works and the other one doesnt work.

[Jezebeau]

The examples of martyr vs. possessed and martyr vs. bounty hunter are not difficult to figure out. 

For the people who stick around and play the game long enough, figure out all the intricacies is a core part of the game. But don't be mistaken, this is definately a learning experience.

I've been playing the game for four days!  The learning curve of the rules is not that steep.  Sure, I still haven't figured out all the interesting rules interactions, but I'm learning - partially through experimentation and partially through asking questions.  For example, lumen answered that if a scout kills a martyr or possessed, it has priority and gets returned to castle before the other effects go off.

Gamers simply need to be impressed by a game's graphics to even slightly want to be turned on.

Graphics and animation would muddy the gameplay.  The interface works because it's simple and responsive.  It gives you the information you need to know without being visually overwhelming.  Zatikon appears to be a niche game.  Graphics might make it more appealing at a glance, but would represent a significant investment for what would likely be a low user retention rate.  Improved visuals would also reduce performance of the game and might alienate current users.  I, for one, would rather the team continue to refine the game as it is.

Re: minime

here is an other thing i can t figure without trying: if i have a strategist, do i get an extra command if an inorganic unit of the opponent attacks? and if my inorganic unit is attacked?

This, I think, is a failure of the game guide on the website to list and describe types of effects.  Inorganics are immune to skills and spells.  Any green box is a skill effect.  Any purple box is a spell effect.  Strategem is a gray box; gray boxes are non-typed, neither skills nor spells.  For a complex example, let's look at a shield maiden.  Her protection ability is a spell, but her damage-receiving is a non-typed gray.  She can be made inorganic and still take damage for her target, but if her target is made inorganic it is no longer a valid target for her spell, and she will stop protecting it.

The scout's return-to-castle ability is a skill (green) and so it won't go off when attacking an inorganic.  The scout's dodge ability is non-typed (gray), so it works fine.
I've tested the following situations regarding inorganic immunity:
An inorganic scout that attacks an organic target will still return to the castle.
An inorganic necromancer can still turn into a lich.
An inorganic lich still gains life if it attacks an organic target.
A lich (organic or not) does not gain life if it attacks an inorganic target.

From these, we can deduce that Zatikon only checks non-self targets for the inorganic trait.

[mongolian]

Jeze, thanks for the response, but I would consider you in the minority of people who have figured the game out.  I've asked friends who should be the perfect demographic for this game and they still don't get into it.  Not saying that is an issue of complexity, but I'm always curious to see what non-hardcore gamers would think.  And to be more specific, people who generally fall into this category get the game and don't read what the units do.  They are the type of people that are going to base their experience on this I believe.

[Jezebeau]

Fair enough, but if they're giving up on the game because they have to read the units, it's probably not the game for them.

[mongolian]

Yeah, Idk. I just feel like they could make a Zatikon version lite where you wouldn't have to read the units.  A zatikon chess mode maybe.

[zatikon]

A lot of the "under the hood" development done in the last several months allows the Zatikon engine to possibly play other, new games.