To All Zatikon Players

[Lunaraia]

Oy mongolian haven't ya heard, im making a game manual so to speak, check out my Zatikon School For beginners in the Units section, and if everything goes as planned it will later be moved into the blog once it is done

[mongolian]

Crew,

The site looks much better then it was when I first joined, the game has progressed alot but the population almost the same.  So if the game has had several expansions, better game balance, 2v2 mode, plenty of bells and whistles, the game doesn't need to get better.  But, the game needs to be advertised and possably more attractive for new players.  Also, needs a little revamp on the homepage to make the game looks fresh. It's an easy answer to say blame advertising/marketing for things, but what other things can affect more players/keep players

IMPORTANCE/EFFECT:
- Better GUI (medium)
- Better website (low)
- Adding youtube like video to homepage (medium/low)
- More units (low)
- New set (medium, only cause it helps bring in sales )
- Advertising (high, but where for low budget)
- Trainer-helper (medium)
- Convert to web based format/flash (high, but low in terms of effort)
- ?
- ??
-

[sgainford]

Advertisement will definitely help. However I think the changes need to go deeper if Zatikon is ever going to become popular.

I personally have not really been able to get into this game fully. I have already stated some of the reasons why this might be in past forum posts. But I think the problems I have with the game other newbie's are having too. I have tried to get my little brothers to play this game. Ever since I remember they have been game freaks, and have played every game under the sun. They tell me this game is boring. I said it is not boring; you just have to study it a bit. But they are not interested. And it is not that they are just interested in extreme graphic games. One of them loves Chess, and there are not much graphics there. Their main complaint is that they don't really know what's going on and when they try to figure it out they run out of time because of the time constraints. When you're a newbie you hover over your opponents units, trying to figure out what they can do and where they move to. Then you hover over your own units to see what they can do and where they can move to. Then you have to plan where to move. By that time the newbie is out of time. Then the newbie's reaction is, which was my original reaction, 'this game sucks, let's go play something else.' Giving the newbie some more time to make his move could change the negative reaction into a positive one. I think the first changes to Zatikon should start there.

Mongolian, you have mentioned to me and in some past forums, that this game is too much of a range game and that the game is better with the more basic units then with the very powerful ones. I'm not completely sure what I think of this, because I haven't studied this game enough yet. I did mention that maybe Commands and Actions should be scraped, which would make it less of a range game and less complicated on the surface. But again, this will change the game a lot.

Are some units too powerful in this game and take away from the strategy of the game, and maybe overwhelm newbie's?  

Well of course there is definitely a limit to how powerful a unit can be. If a unit goes over that limit then strategy leaves the game and it becomes boring. For example, let's say you had a unit called 'God'. This unit would not even have to be deployed but was always on the board. He had the power to vanish every single enemy unit into oblivion and he didn't even have to walk into the opponent's castle to win but he could actually make the castle float over to him. This is an extreme case however it is just to highlight that there has to be a limit to how powerful units are or the game gets ridiculous and unplayable.

After reading all the forum entries, it seems that people mostly have a problem with some of the Wyrms. After reading up on all the units I purchased Dracolich, because it looked like the most powerful unit, with its ability to resurrect an enemy to your side when it dies. I seem to easily destroy the AI now with this unit on my side, but I think it might be too powerful.  It doesn't make the game unplayable, like a God unit would, however I think it might take away from the high strategic level of the game. One of the best turn-based games ever, Chess, allows you to gain another player to your team also. In Chess, every pond is a potential Queen. However it is definitely not so easy getting your pond to your opponent's side to Queen.  If it was then the game would go on forever and would be boring.  I think if email Zatikon is ever introduced, in which you would then have as much time as you want to make a move, I can see Dracolich causing huge problems, along with other units that are too powerful. I haven't played any of the other Wyrms yet, however just briefly looking at their descriptions, the Feathered Serpent looks far too powerful, with its ability to heal all friendly units and returning a dead ally back to the castle. I still have only played about thirty games of Zatikon so far, and I would have to play far more before I could make a completely accurate judgement to scrap a unit or not, however to me at the moment, and what I have read from other Zatikon players, is that certain units are just too powerful. I think any unit that can recruit new units as easily as the Dracolich or any unit that can heal its team so easily maybe should go. I know the game tries to balance out the power of the units by making them worth a lot more points, but I'm not sure if that balances them out enough. To me, and it seems too many others, they just take too much of the strategy and skill out of the game.

I'm still here because I'm interested in this games potential, rather then really into the game as it stands now. I'm a writer, or trying to be a writer anyway, and the first thing they teach you in creative writing class is 'murder your darlings.' So you have to cut and cut and cut and let the game or story breath. It is difficult to do, especially if you created something you really like, but if they're not making the story or game flow, then they have to be deleted or the game or story will never go anywhere. Maybe this should be considered for some of the more powerful units in Zatikon. But again, I'm not sure yet.  
 
My advice is first to get rid of the time constraints and set up email Zatikon, and then everybody will be able to really study this game because they will have the time to study the game. Then all the flaws will really start revealing themselves, and once revealed, can start being fixed. But it is all about evolution and progression. Things take time, but with a dedicated collective effort, it can evolve to something great.

[mongolian]

My advice is first to get rid of the time constraints and set up email Zatikon

I played with my brother and a few others and yes, it would help to be an OPTION, not a requirement.  That being said, I don't think it's that huge of an issue as it's better to get players adapted to the fast style of play as most games the norm is approximately a 1 min timer.  About 'email Zatikon', I'm not sure what you mean, but I don't see much purpose for creation of something similiar.  At that point, just make a new game which is not the correct response.

But I think the problems I have with the game other newbie's are having too. I have tried to get my little brothers to play this game... They tell me this game is boring. I said it is not boring; you just have to study it a bit. But they are not interested.

I've addressed many of your points, but I will reiterate: GAMERS DON'T READ. They don't like to read the units or interpret the abilities, let alone read how to play.  Click now, ask later.  Which is why gamers are more interested to see a lame animation of pieces attacking one another rather then have a function.  Look how popular a game like Dofus became.   But, I feel like Zatikon needs to go in between what it is now and what the new real time strategy game Chronic Logic came up with.  Basically, the game should have functions & animations like a SNES game.  Look at games like SNES: Ogre Battle or Command & Conquer'ish type games.  Or even better, the classic Starcraft/Warcraft.  Why can't Zatikon use similiar graphics in a turn based Zatikon concept?  I know there are a few games floating around with better graphics like this and worse gameplan for turn based games.

What I've always believed to be a better solution then better in-game graphics, is the opposite end, making the game 'feel' simpler.  Even if Zatikon didn't use 'sprites', isn't it possible to simplify the units and the unit system?  Can't the game split up complex units into 2-3 units, simplify the combat system?  A game that I've recently got into which I think heavily relates to this topic is 'Battalion Arena' found on www.kongregate.com  Just look at the animations/combat system. 

[Lunaraia]

zatikon is fine as it is, id be very disappointed if they changed the way things worked

[sgainford]

zatikon is fine as it is, id be very disappointed if they changed the way things worked

The whole point is that Zatikon is not fine how it is. The total player pool shows that. We might disagree how to improve Zatikon – whether it's a better GUI, different playing mode, different units, or more structural changes as I have stated – but I think it should be clear that Zatikon needs a lot more tweaking or 5 years from now it will be the same old thing in the forum – why can't I find anybody to play on this game?

About 'email Zatikon', I'm not sure what you mean, but I don't see much purpose for creation of something similiar.  At that point, just make a new game which is not the correct response.

Before email existed, old Chess Grandmasters use to have 100's of chess games going on at once, by normal mail. They would make a move, write it down on some paper, put it in an envelope and then post it to their opponent. Their opponent would then get the letter a few days or weeks later, see what move their opponent made, make their next move, and then post their move back.

One of the great things about turn-based strategy games, unlike real time strategy games, is that you have the possibility of not having to sit down at a game and play non-stop until the game is finished. That type of thing puts many people off, especially older gamers, who have families and work. So play by email allows you to just make a move or a few moves a day, and then finish the game the next day or over the next few days. And if you truly want a game to be global, it would have to be a turn-based game by email. You might come home from work there in America and your ready to have a game with me, however you can't, because it's 2 am in the morning over here in Britain and I'm asleep. Unless I've been partying and I'm awake; but then I'd be drunk and you would easily beat me.

Sometimes I've logged on to Zatikon and there is not one person on playing. From the forums it seems like some people have had similar problems. But the thing is that were logging on in our own time zone. Imagine if time zones didn't matter anymore and everybody in the world is available to play. With email Zatikon this is possible. You get home from work and you have our game were playing together waiting for you in your account. You make your move. When I wake up, I then see the move you have made, and then I make my move. If we happen to be online at the same time, then we can basically play live, for unlike the old Chess Grandmasters and their envelopes, email is instant. You make a move over there in America and here in England I will see it instantly.

With the Chess site I belong to, I have played people from all over the world. I wake up and go into my account, then make my move against you in America. But I don't just sit around and wait for you to wake up and then make your move; I then go on to one of the other 30 games I'm playing at the same time, which are all waiting for my move to be made. I then make my move with the guy I'm playing in Japan. Then with the guy in South Africa. Then with the guy in Sweden etc. By the time I've finished making all the moves I had to, somebody has already logged in and made another move. With this set up you will never be lost for play. The only problem with this set up is that you might have too many games to play and Zatikon will be frying on your brain! But again, this sort of setup can only be done with turn-based games. So turn-based developers, take advantage!  

It might be hard to visualise what I'm saying, especially if you have never played turn-based games by email before. So what you should do is go and join the Chess site I belong to at www.mychess.de . It is free and I believe you can play up to 3 games at once. If you're a member you can play like 30 games at once. Even if you don't feel like playing Chess, just join for the sake of Zatikon and try it out. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain!  
 

I've addressed many of your points, but I will reiterate: GAMERS DON'T READ. They don't like to read the units or interpret the abilities, let alone read how to play.  Click now, ask later.  Which is why gamers are more interested to see a lame animation of pieces attacking one another rather then have a function.  Look how popular a game like Dofus became.   But, I feel like Zatikon needs to go in between what it is now and what the new real time strategy game Chronic Logic came up with.  Basically, the game should have functions & animations like a SNES game.  Look at games like SNES: Ogre Battle or Command & Conquer'ish type games.  Or even better, the classic Starcraft/Warcraft.  Why can't Zatikon use similiar graphics in a turn based Zatikon concept?  I know there are a few games floating around with better graphics like this and worse gameplan for turn based games.

What I've always believed to be a better solution then better in-game graphics, is the opposite end, making the game 'feel' simpler.  Even if Zatikon didn't use 'sprites', isn't it possible to simplify the units and the unit system?  Can't the game split up complex units into 2-3 units, simplify the combat system?  A game that I've recently got into which I think heavily relates to this topic is 'Battalion Arena' found on www.kongregate.com  Just look at the animations/combat system.  

Concerning reading things in a game; I don't think that should be a problem. People who play turn-based games usually like to think more then the real time shoot 'em up gamers. If you have a gold fish brain and you don't want to think or read, or you can't read, and you just want to click and kill things, then turn-based games are probably not for you. The most popular contemporary turn-based games are the Civilization series. And there is huge amount of reading in that. You basically can get a whole history lesson every time you play the game. But that to me gives the game more depth and makes the game more educational. I would personally love for the Zatikon crew to give us a lot more to read. Give us a wiki on the units; with like a whole page for each unit - Its history, strengths, weaknesses, what it does on its days off when it's not killing other units in battle. That would make the game more educational and give it more of a cult following.  

Now when you're in the mist of battle; that is when you don't want to have a lot to read. If you have to do some reading when battling then you want to be able to scan it quickly and get every thing you want in an instant. But I think the Zatikon crew have done very well with this. The boxes with the units give you everything you need to know in the briefest form available. I'm not sure how you can improve on that.

Yes, if this game ever is going to fully spread in today's world, then the graphics will have to be improved. However I don't think this should be the main priority at the moment. There are far more important things to change first.

Agents and publishers usually tell a writer to pick a genre and then do something a little bit different in it. If you're in a genre then it is easier to sell the book, because people are familiar with the genre and it is easy to market something that already has a popular foundation set up. The problem is when things come out that don't fit a particular genre. Then people are not familiar with it and can't connect with it. Very few people are brave enough to try something completely new.  I think Zatikon has done quite well in that in has connected itself to Chess, the most popular game ever. However the problem with that is that people will then start comparing Zatikon to the most popular game ever. Is Zatikon like Chess? Is Zatikon better than Chess? Is it worst? Is Zatikon Chess evolved?

Zatikon has to know what it is. And if it connects itself to something it has to make sure it resembles that something it's connected itself to. If not then people will not connect or relate to the game, and then they move on to something more familiar.

I don't think Zatikon is enough like Chess. But I think the Zatikon crew should try to make Zatikon more like Chess, because that's where you will get the players from – from the Chess player population, not the real time strategy games or the giant turn-based games population. Zatikon can not compete with the likes of Warcraft, Command and Conquer, or Civilization. However it can compete with Chess. Chess is an old game and can not make use of contemporary computer technology like Zatikon can. But nobody has trumped Chess yet. And Chess has a bigger game population then Warcraft, Command and Conquer, and Civiliztion combined! There is a huge market there. I think the Zatikon developer's goal should be to trump Chess.  

To make Zatikon more like Chess I think I would get rid of Commands. I don't see the point of them. In Chess you move one unit per turn. In Zatikon you have too many moves going on. If you got rid of Commands then how it would work would be that every unit on the board could use up its designated Actions per turn. Every move a unit does cost an Action and every attack a unit does cost an Action. This would make the game more like Chess, make the game less complicated on the surface, and enable players to do better calculations, making the game more complex underneath. But because Zatikon has more interesting units then Chess, it will be better then Chess. It really will be Chess evolved.    

[mongolian]

In Chess you move one unit per turn. In Zatikon you have too many moves going on.

I strongly disagree. It could help for simplicity sake to give a flat # of commands like 5-6 and remove all action making units, but Zatikon is and should NEVER be meant to be a 1-2 action type of game.  At that point you mine as well create a completely new game type.

I think the Zatikon developer's goal should be to trump Chess.  

I agree there is a market to steal chess players and Zatikon should do more to do that, but Zatikon is NOT about trumping chess.  Zatikon is taking the idea of chess as its base and giving players more interactivity, playability, flexability and a more modern computerised hybrid of chess.  Gamers today definately are easily more attracted to graphics over function, but I believe anything is possible for a game to be 'succesful'.  But, let's define success:  If you want a game to make money, that's where MMORPG's are.  If you want a game to be popular, try making mini games and things that won't make money.  If you want to design a successful strategy game, expect a small demographic.  First, you have to fight off console gamers.  Next, skirt off the demographic of gamers obsessed with graphics (CIV/Quake/Command&Conquer/etc.), after that try to find 'strategy gamers'.  To me, it seems 66% of Zatikon players come in like teenagers.  They are here for free goodies and to try a new game.  After a few days of playing the AI and trying a couple other game modes, they lose interest quickly.  You also have to factor in that yes, the graphics, game and what not look very old and vintage.  It's just not what I think people are looking for.  Sure, the third to a half of Zatikon players came to find something similiar to what they were looking for: a new strategy game and probablly something similiar to chess.  But, without the game being so heavy reliant to be played alone or vs the AI as there are so few people are online, many have left.  It's not saying the game failed, but more the game needs new ways to attract players.  

Cooperative mode is probablly the most popular mode next to single player.  Despite being a die hard fan for Random mode, this tells me people hate competition.  Which you have to understand is really odd because this game is similiar to chess which thrives on human vs human.  But, people really do hate losing to another human but don't mind being defeated by an AI.  I think it's clear the game should expand on a game focued for multiple ways to play against the computer and have playing with another human or 2 be optional.  When the game gains popularity, it can always fall back into the Random/Constructed modes but this should be treated secondary.  

Lastly, I think the game needs to get simpler, but it's difficult to say as it means lots of changes.  I think the combat system is fine.  Even more so, It would be nice to see more of the basic stats written out more.  Zatikon needs to survive as a game of many units where users have the option to read what a unit does but majority of the time users should not be needed to read what a unit does.  The current system still doesn't work that way, even after playing for a long time.  It's clear a Horse in chess moves like in a "L".  It's clear a warlock can hit something within 5 and that a summoner will make more units, but if I have to click to read that a warlock does different damage from a straight line that hits 6 or click to read the stats of the summoner's summons, I feel Zatikon will never get grandiose.  An abjurer simply only needs to unsommon 1 thing within 5, no need to write or have it do anything more.  A Knight could simply kill anything without armor and automatically kill anything with 2 hits, but he won't have any other abilities, nor should I click to have to find out how much hit points units have.  I'm sure I'm over exaggerating things, but It's also good to keep questioning the way we think about Zatikon.

[mongolian]

btw, I forgot to mention how much I LOATHE day based games.  Every game I've seen on the internet like this.  It's like every myspace application has this where you log in each day and get X amount of credits/moves per day.  The internet is flooded with these types of games and I see no interest to see Zatikon move to this direction.   Zatikon unlike chess doesn't need to have 8 move deep analysis.  Including an optional Unlimited (or 5 min) timer resolves this suggestion for players.

[sgainford]

Lastly, I think the game needs to get simpler, but it's difficult to say as it means lots of changes.  I think the combat system is fine.  Even more so, It would be nice to see more of the basic stats written out more.  Zatikon needs to survive as a game of many units where users have the option to read what a unit does but majority of the time users should not be needed to read what a unit does.  The current system still doesn't work that way, even after playing for a long time.  It's clear a Horse in chess moves like in a "L".  It's clear a warlock can hit something within 5 and that a summoner will make more units, but if I have to click to read that a warlock does different damage from a straight line that hits 6 or click to read the stats of the summoner's summons, I feel Zatikon will never get grandiose.  An abjurer simply only needs to unsommon 1 thing within 5, no need to write or have it do anything more.  A Knight could simply kill anything without armor and automatically kill anything with 2 hits, but he won't have any other abilities, nor should I click to have to find out how much hit points units have.  I'm sure I'm over exaggerating things, but It's also good to keep questioning the way we think about Zatikon.

I agree

[Lunaraia]

Agree with you there Mongolian, NO LIMIT PER DAY, or im out of Zatikon for good

[lorax]

i could see giving novice players a little more time, but how to implement this with the new ranking system is not clear to me.  might have to be un-related to rank, and just time since account creation or something like that.

that said, i am very against increasing the time limit.  the beauty of this game is that you have to figure out your moves in limited time.  most of the time, this is not much of a problem (for seasoned players).  increasing the time limit would kill p vs p live games.  people think this game is boring now, imagine having to wait another half a minute for someone to make their moves and it would become dreadfull.  that said, giving players who want to take forever as an option for both would be fine too, but it would have to be mutual. 

to me, the real problem in getting people to get into this game is the lack of a meaningful rewards system.  about the only reward before was obtaining a higher rank.  although i was in support of the new ranking system, now that its been implemented, i feel like the one last reward for this game is now gone, as the new ranking seems nearly meaningless to me with so few players around.  (by the way, the ranks don't even fit on the scroll window anymore, which is annoying to say the least).  when a newb logs on too, the ranking makes no sense at all.  what the heck is 1000?  why is there another number by the name?  there needs to be some up top explanation right there when you log on or something.  not clear to me now how long the rankings last, or what i am even trying to accomplish. 

most new players also want to play solo.  very few want to play against another person at first until they have some solo experience.  so its this solo experience that needs work.  again, it needs a better reward system.  not just gold, but some sort of achievements.  an example would be if relics could only be obtained through certain achievements, not by purchasing them.  or some way to upgrade your units in some other fashion.  or just even obtaining more advanced units.    also, the solo AI needs to be retooled somehow to make that much more interesting.  some sort of scenarios or something like that would make it more meaningful.  something to keep the newb interested.   

[Fiffers]

Can we unsticky this old debate. If we are not addressing it this gets in the way. Lets have a standard time and options for extending that both players can agree on. I enjoy this over chess, just because it's on a chess grid does not mean we need to make it more like chess. Simplify a little more or make it easier to understand all the effects.

Fif

[xsherlock]

My point is that the Zatikon is good as it is now, and in the world there are thousands of players that would love it as it is, we just need to reach them, my idea of doing it is to relase Android/iOS version as quicly as possible as that would give a massive boost to the audience.