To All Zatikon Players

[mongolian]

Strategy or Experienced Blogger.  Which is needed more?  I'm typically pretty lengthly in my answers so perhaps strategy suits me more?

[sgainford]

Eliminating the time constraints is likely to alienate more people than it would draw in;  very few people actually enjoy sitting at their screen for ten minutes doing nothing while their opponent meticulously analyzes(and probably overanalyzes) everything. Back when I played in a chess club, even the most enthusiastic players would take out the timer, because they didn't feel like, or couldn't, play a very protracted game.  I'm also not enthusiastic about the potential being locked into a game when an opponent goes afk indefinitely. While I wouldn't protest a game mode where you can 'save' a game, uploading a move whenever you log in, 'email Zatikon' with a playerbase this size wouldn't work.  Having people in the chatroom when you first log into the game is a comfort, and creates a sense of community when you regularly interact in continuous time with other individuals.

It's pretty rare that I feel the time constraint is inhibiting;  I usually finish plays with 30 seconds or more left on the clock, and am not sure what I would do with the remainder.  The duration of my opponent's turn is perfectly adequate to develop a strategy.

Hello Norsker

I doubt eliminating time constraints would alienate more people. All the major Chess sites have eliminated time constraints and they have thousands of members. When you're playing somebody live you usually don't sit there and take 10 minutes to move. Online Chess is usually played quite fast, probably averaging about 90 seconds per move. This is usually the same when you play somebody at Chess in person. Mostly this is because in certain positions you just don't need that much time to make your move. And also a player feels a bit embarrassed if they take so long for each of their moves. However there are certain positions and points in the game that you really need to do some deep thinking calculations, and you would need definitely more time then 90 seconds. However usually, in Chess that is, you don't spend more then 5 minutes on such a high calibre move. But again, with email Chess that is all eliminated anyway. If you're playing somebody and there taking so long to make a move, you just move to one of the other games your playing, and it doesn't really become a problem. Concerning being locked into a game with somebody that goes AWOL; that doesn't really become a problem either because when somebody puts out an email challenge they would choose from one of the 4 options below:

1 day for 10 turns
10 days for 10 turns
20 days for 10 turns
30 days for 10 turns
40 days for 10 turns

After a player does his 10 turns then it resets back to how many days were set up with the challenge – so you would get 10 turns again for that many days. If somebody doesn't make the designated turns by the designated days then they lose.

Concerning chat rooms; I don't see why this has to disappear. You can still go online and chat to people or chat with people you are having a game with. And again, the email game can be turned into a live game whenever you want, as long as your opponent is online.

I created a layout below to highlight how Zatikon could potentially look or be (I had some graphics but can't insert them properly for some reason):

sgainford           Gold: 286
Rating: 1568
39 x won
21 x lost
5 x drawn

Current Games
Finished Games
Messages/Chat
I was Challenged
I Challenged
I want to Challenge
I'm Watching
Tournaments
Lead  a Tournament
Edit Army
Army Archive
New Unit (100 Gold)
Zatikon Clubs
Rating Hall of Fame
Your Account
Refer a Friend


In the 'Current Games' tab you could see every game you are playing. This could be up to 10 games with full members (those who pay something like $9.99 a year, or those who have bought the expansion packs), 5 games with non members and 10 tournament games. You would be able to click on one of your games and see it. There would also be a 'back' button set up, which enables you to go back and see each turn your opponent has made or you have made since the start of the game. This is helpful if you haven't made a move for awhile and just want to refresh your memory as to where your strategy was going. There would also be a 'Live' button that could turn the game live (if your opponent is online that is). To see who is online -- by every game you are playing an online symbol would pop up that would let you know if that person is online. But with the email/offline setup you don't really need to go live anyway, because this is a turn based game and when you just make your move your opponent will be able to see it on the server that it was made.

In the 'Finished Games' tab you could go over all your games you have ever played. This will allow you to see where you went wrong, or right, on each turn, which will enable you to improve your skills.

In the 'I was Challenged' tab you can see who has challenged you and is awaiting your approval, or rejection.

In the 'I Challenged' tab you can see everybody you challenged and are waiting to see if they will be accepted or rejected.

In the 'I want to Challenge' tab you do your challenges. You choose to either challenge a member, a friend (non-member) or make a public challenge in which you play against an unknown player. You can, as stated above, set the time limit, and also set a rating range in which only people in that rating range will see the public challenge you have made. And from reading the forums, it seems like some people don't like certain units, so you could have an option in which you could actually filter out the units you don't like when you make your challenge.

In the 'I'm Watching' tab you can actually watch games that are going on between other people.

In the 'Tournaments' tab you can see what tournaments are going on and join one.

In the 'Lead a Tournament' tab you can create your own tournament. I'm not sure how you can properly organise a tournament with Zatikon in its current format, because everybody would have to be online at that particular time, however with email/offline Zaitkon this is not a problem. You will give a name to the tournament, choose what type of tournament (round- robin etc.), what the time limit is (10 days for 10 turns), Maximum number of participants, set a rating range, set the closing date for the last day people can join, and then set the opening day for when the tournament starts.

[sgainford]

Long time ago, I actually made a crucial reccomendation: Trainer mode.  Yes, this game is VERY OVERWHELMING.  I think it actually has a very negative effect on an average player's mind.  I don't know how to "dumb down" the game, but if there was a (1) good youtube like tutorial and (2) a mode of play where you could see how each piece moves, attacks and such.  In this mode, there would only be 1 piece on the entire board.  A testing zone.  Even after saying all this I feel I am underegagerating that this game needs to be more newbie friendly.  So it's a combination of

1. Cleaner/simpler GUI
2. Test zone to see how each piece moves/clicks
3. YouTube-like video tutorials
4. Other?

Hello Mongolian

I've been going through, quite slowly, all the past forum comments and have read a lot of yours. You seem to have some very good ideas and seem to have been very important to the development of this game. It's quite interesting reading all the past forums. It's like your getting a history lesson of the game.

A training mode seems interesting. However just having one player on its own probably won't tell you much about the unit, since how the unit interacts with other units is how you learn about them. I think the best way to learn in this game, and usually with most things, is just to start playing. But then of course you need to know how to play. Playing the AI is a good way to learn, but again, I think mirror armies so that it is not too overwhelming for the newbie. A YouTube-like training video seems like a great idea. Also just something about Zatikon on YouTube is a great idea, especially how much YouTube gets hit every day. I think if you put Zatikon under 'Chess Evolved' on YouTube then it will probably get a bunch of hits. At the moment if you put 'Chess Evolved' in YouTube it pops up with a Chess game in which you can move the squares of the board around in any shape you like. That can't beat Zatikon!

I think why Chess is so popular is because that on the surface it is simple (the rules and how the pieces move), however when you get into the game it is really complicated. I think this is a winning combination. With Zatikon I think it is complicated when you get into the game (which is a good thing) however it is also complicated on the surface (which is a bad thing). So you need to eliminate the latter, as you stated.

I would like to ask you Mongolian, or any other experienced player -- In any given turn, can you calculate all possible moves, or the majority or most important moves your opponent can make? For example, in Chess, if I move my Knight to D6 I can be absolutely positive that my Knight can not be attacked by my opponent. Of course I could blunder or calculate wrongly, however if I calculate correctly, I know for a fact that I can not be attacked. Is this always possible with Zatikon? I have only actually played this game about 30 times, but I have tried to calculate every or most moves, like I would with Chess, and sometimes I can but other times I can't. Or when I try to do some deep planning I usually run out of time. But I think being able to calculate to a high level is important for top strategy games and top competition. Maybe what seems to be making the game seem difficult to me, or to other beginners, is the 'Commands' and 'Actions'. Again in Chess, it is easy to understand on the surface: 'I move here, he can't get me. He moves there, he attacks me.' When you're calculating in Chess all you really need to know is how the pieces move. In Zatikon, it seems like there is just so much to calculate: 'well he could attack me if he uses all his commands ... oh wait, how many actions does he have? ... oh wait, how many commands does he have?' Then you have to look at all the special skills the unit has. Then you have to calculate the units armour. Then you have to calculate the units life. Then you have to calculate what squares the unit can attack, and so on.

Let's say Commands and Actions were scrapped. I know the whole game would have to be revamped if this was done, but let's just say they were. How would the game then work? Well you could have it that every unit you have out can now only be moved once a turn and attack once a turn. So you don't have to worry about commands anymore or actions. All you then have to calculate is the units special talents and skills and its move to target location, along with its life and armour. To me that actually might make the game much more strategic, because you can now fully calculate everything, and less complicated on the surface, which will bring more newbies in.

I could be completely wrong, and maybe should play the game more before I raised this question, or finish reading the past forums, however I'm just curious what you, or others think about the Commands and Actions and how the game would be if they were no longer?

[mongolian]

Thanks for the long reply sgainford.  I can't stress how wonderful it is to read long well thought out responses. I try not to be detailed with my ideas, therefore letting the developers deviate how they please.  But, I will get more specific:

Trainer mode:  I believe, the board would always be setup in the same exact position with the same exact pieces.  That way you can see what happens when you attack the piece beside it, diagonal, 2 away, 5 away, cluster attacks, how much damage per unit, etc.  The unit would damage the piece and then the scenario would end possibly with some text showing how much damge it dealt and to which pieces.  It really doesn't even need to display that kind of information as newbies just like to click-click and think/ask later.  If you want Zatikon or any game to succeed it must be made for the masses, aka made for people with no attention span and made to be enjoyed by morons.  

Boss mode is also a great hook.  Look, yellow pieces are 'special' pieces that only the AI can use.  Why not just invent new pieces that only the AI can access that equal yellow pieces.  Simply put, they would appear as units in your unit list but worth over 1000 pts ( or possibly hidden as some kind of unlockable). But seeing a big ass dragon or monsters is much cooler then seeing a yellow piece which i have to click and read all the 3 powers it has and according stats.  DONT make players read!

Yes, I can say I have mastered a big majority of this game in a means of a few months.  Chess would take years, but chess is unfortunately about memorization and I'm not interested to learn the brilliance of the moves beyond in the exchange of that kind of  dedication.  On the contrary, I'm addicted to seeing brilliant games that take little time but are very thought out.  In Zatikon there is a clear hierarchy with many deviations, but a clear foundation is seen.  Simply put, Zatikon has not developed enough units (or made too many) that it can't stray far enough away from calling it a range game.   Units like the warrior, doppelganger, barracks, summer and artificer have helped move it away from being a range game, but the other core values are still under rated.   I have much longer explanations upon this, but Zatikon is still an amazing game and I'd rather focus on what it needs to succeed.

I know I have missed some more core points for what Zatikon needs, so let me try to rehash (and hopefully I don't bore everyone with my repetition).

1.   More Advertising/Marketing. (with budget: gmail/yahoo email advertising), (grassroots: marketing at game/anime conventions, revamping and re-advertising on gamer sites like jayisgames.com, free CD's of game handing around campuses across USA)

2.   Made simpler. (trainer mode, cleaner GUI, easy to follow website for information via you tube videos)

3.   More newbie friendly (the strategy players are the ones that stick around but the mass audience comes in like chess players and people who will never think about strategy)

4.   New look.  At some point, it might even have to be marketed as a new game, to grab the attention of them all.  Here is a screenshot of a new GUI I designed long ago: http://www.biyte.com/zatikon/index.jpg

PS - email = staypuft242@yahoo.com
PPS - typing long entrees in this forum is very difficult now (keeps scrolling wierdly).

[mongolian]

I forgot to reiterate again: please, please don't develop tournaments yet.  Get players first, keep players playing longer, then it's a viable thought.  But to do both of these, many more changes would need to occur.

[Lunaraia]

As I mentioned someplace else If I am online and someone have any questions fel free to ask as I am running the Zatikon School for Newbies when I am online and have the possibility to do so

[mongolian]

Lunaraia, are you not a blogger too?  Or is this something else?  You are one of the most frequent posters.   PS - I am more then happy to always help out with any in-game question. Best way to reach me is private message in these forums.

[sgainford]

So I'm at my College pub last night, drinking a few beers, and watch this old man with slick back white hair and two teeth missing from his mouth destroy this young little lady at Pool. Then he looks confidently at me, with his chest raised and says, 'I'm next'. I said let's play a real game, and break out the Chess board from behind the bar. He confidently accepts my challenge. We play Shuffle Chess and I completely destroy him in the first game, check mating him in 10 moves. We play a second game and he's doing much better, periodically rubbing his swollen hands over his slicked back white hair and smiling with his toothless mouth. I'm highly intoxicated by now and I could have sworn at one point I had three Knights. Anyway I start dominating and I don't see his toothless smiles anymore. We get to a point where it is definite that he is going to lose his Knight. The guy then says to me 'it's late now and I have to go.' I said no way! Just wait 5 more minutes and you will have lost. But the guy left! Thinking back on it now though I'm not sure if he left because he was losing or left because I was trying to make out with his cute lady friend at the same time I was playing him. I'm not quite sure.

Anyway, after they all left I had some time to think about Zatikon; the future of Zatikon that is. Imagine instead of whipping out a Chess board you took out a Zatikon board. On your side you would have your 3D image hologram castle and on your opponents side he would have his 3D image hologram castle.  Then you would release your 3D hologram units from your castle and battle it out! And when they killed each other you wouldn't just see them disappear in a little blob like you do now, but you would see them fight in full detail, with the blood and guts and everything. (Don't worry Zatikon crew, I'm not asking you to develop this now; just a futuristic thought.)  

A blog would be great, especially if the likes of Mongolian and Lunaraia were doing the blogging. As a beginner I think I would definitely be able to learn from their blogs.

As for a name for the Blog; what about 'The Zatikon Mind'.  

[xazn]

Strategy or Experienced Blogger.  Which is needed more?  I'm typically pretty lengthly in my answers so perhaps strategy suits me more?

both are needed equally, but experience is more rite now.

This thread is getting out of hand a bit....

We aren't full force on tournament yet, but we would like to conduct a test of it to see how it may go.

Your advertising ideas are great keep them coming and we ll try our best on this end! Thanks to all!

[Lunaraia]

Im not a blogger, I post when I have time, and sides it takes DAYS between each time, and work is shot said getting a little out of hand ATM

However if tere are a big support for me blogging I'll try to chirp in from time to time, can't commit myself fulltime however, as previously mentionned things are getting a little out of hand and im working overtime alot and when I get home I eat an go to sleep most days, for now atleast, I am on from time to time, and as of sutch I could atleast support the blog by giving another point of view so to speak

[mongolian]

Can someone send me a private message so I can start writing as the strategy gamer? 

Sgainford, I was really hoping to hear you elaborate on the part where you get the girl.  But, your story reminds me of a typical night out in most European cities.  Maybe it's just a universal thing for young guys to be cocky all the time. 

[sgainford]

Can someone send me a private message so I can start writing as the strategy gamer? 

Sgainford, I was really hoping to hear you elaborate on the part where you get the girl.  But, your story reminds me of a typical night out in most European cities.  Maybe it's just a universal thing for young guys to be cocky all the time. 

Well I don't feel cocky when I get destroyed in Random mode in Zatikon. 

Yes, somebody hurry up and get Mongolian hooked up on the blog. I have to start learning about this thing called Zatikon strategy.

[xazn]

Can someone send me a private message so I can start writing as the strategy gamer? 

Sgainford, I was really hoping to hear you elaborate on the part where you get the girl.  But, your story reminds me of a typical night out in most European cities.  Maybe it's just a universal thing for young guys to be cocky all the time. 

Well I don't feel cocky when I get destroyed in Random mode in Zatikon. 

Yes, somebody hurry up and get Mongolian hooked up on the blog. I have to start learning about this thing called Zatikon strategy.

HAHA We ll do.

[Norsker]

Thanks for the long reply sgainford.  I can't stress how wonderful it is to read long well thought out responses. I try not to be detailed with my ideas, therefore letting the developers deviate how they please.  But, I will get more specific:

1.   More Advertising/Marketing. (with budget: gmail/yahoo email advertising), (grassroots: marketing at game/anime conventions, revamping and re-advertising on gamer sites like jayisgames.com, free CD's of game handing around campuses across USA)

If you mean advertising through the actual email interface, that's actually an inefficient allocation of funds.  I went to a conference a few weeks ago and attended a talk given by one of yahoo's marketing researchers, and it turns out the rate of return for email advertising could be as low as 0. 

[sgainford]

Thanks for the long reply sgainford.  I can't stress how wonderful it is to read long well thought out responses. I try not to be detailed with my ideas, therefore letting the developers deviate how they please.  But, I will get more specific:

1.   More Advertising/Marketing. (with budget: gmail/yahoo email advertising), (grassroots: marketing at game/anime conventions, revamping and re-advertising on gamer sites like jayisgames.com, free CD's of game handing around campuses across USA)

If you mean advertising through the actual email interface, that's actually an inefficient allocation of funds.  I went to a conference a few weeks ago and attended a talk given by one of yahoo's marketing researchers, and it turns out the rate of return for email advertising could be as low as 0.  

Well, every time my email advertises some site with a woman hardly wearing any clothes; I always click on it.