Thoughts of a new player

[weeble]

I bought the game today after playing the demo for a while. I regret to say that it's not been everything I've hoped for, but I'd like to explain why I feel disappointed.

Firstly, before I even got to play, that download system was problematic. I've got a reasonably good ADSL connection, but the download failed 3 times, which is awkward and time-consuming for such a huge file. Is there any particular reason the system disallows download managers?

Next, the game takes about a minute to load to the main menu on my laptop - a Celeron 2.8GHz with almost 512Mb of RAM (64Mb is used by a Radeon Mobility). Is this normal? So far the graphics have been pretty sparse, so I'm wondering what makes the download so huge and the loading time so long. Is it the music?

The menu interface is a bit clunky. Excuseable, but niggling. The versus menu is quite non-intuitive. You want to click on the pictures, not just the text. And it's not immediately obvious what the little 2 and 3 underneath are for. (I know now.)

As for the game, I really feel like I'm struggling to control Gish sometimes. It feels laborious to get him to jump because the first press of the button barely lifts him off the ground. It's a nightmare to get him to crawl around the underside of objects - he keeps falling off unless I go really slowly.

Right now I'm on chapter 3, the 7 planes of hehenna, and I'm finding it very frustrating. Most of the areas I enter kill me for not knowing what to do. I don't like the process of having to die repeatedly to find out what the correct way is to progress.

When I lose a life on the first level of an episode, it's really not worth going on - I'm better off killing Gish until I get to continue with full lives. Perhaps a "restart chapter" option in the menu would be a good idea?

I keep getting hurt by huge amounts of health for impacting with pieces of scenery. I find the beginning of level 3.2 very nasty - assuming I don't fall in the lava at the bottom of the chain of swinging platforms, I get smashed down to about 30 health by getting trapped between the last platform and the wall. Other times I'll get hurt lots just for landing on a relatively narrow platform. Is this all really necessary? There's enough things that kill me outright for the high level of impact damage to be quite over the top.

Also, chapter 3 looks very odd. All the walls are plain brown. Is something broken? There's the occasional nail or skull for decoration, but I'm sure the walls and backgrounds aren't supposed to be a single shade of brown.

Anyway, I'd like to say that I do really love the concept, and the characters look beautiful. The physics model is very impressive. I'll still play the game because I do like it, but I simply feel it doesn't realise its potential. Maybe my opinion will change over time, but I remain cautious.

Regards,

Weeble.

[DonutGuyX]

If you download the latest patch, you'll be able to start a new game on easy mode, which makes it so that when you lose all your lives, you'll continue on the same level, rather than at the beginning of the chapter.

[Spunior]

Firstly, before I even got to play, that download system was problematic. I've got a reasonably good ADSL connection, but the download failed 3 times

I had *no* trouble at all downloading the game. Everything worked fine and I got as much speed as the connection can provide. Same for the other two people I know who bought the game. No problems.

Next, the game takes about a minute to load to the main menu on my laptop - a Celeron 2.8GHz with almost 512Mb of RAM

Well, I just checked it. Took the game 40 seconds to load. The funny thing is that my machine is 2 GHz slower than yours and has half the amount if RAM.

It feels laborious to get him to jump because the first press of the button barely lifts him off the ground.

And to me that's part of the challenge that makes Gish so fun. It's not your average jump'n run and in order to get him higher upwards one has to have a nice timing plus create tension via down key. I can see why some people might not like it, but it's not a design flaw, it certainly is a way they had it in mind and I had no problems with getting used it.

Right now I'm on chapter 3, the 7 planes of hehenna, and I'm finding it very frustrating.

Small remark: that's the most difficult world you'll encounter in Gish. It gets easier again afterwards, at least that's how I perceived it.

Perhaps a "restart chapter" option in the menu would be a good idea?

Agreed, that one could be handy in such a case.

As for the part with the swinging platforms you mentioned. You can 'let them go' and wait a bit. After that you can jump down from platform to platform once they stopped swinging. Or at least stay stuck to the swing that comes before the last swing and do *not* move to it. Just wait for it to stop swinging below and then jump down.

[blob]

ohhh
and what does the hard mode do ?

[L etranger]

Weeble, most of your complain are about Gish motion but that is what the game is based on, the motion physic. this not a simple jump, go and crouch game, you must use the physic to give Gish his power.

I found the difficulty pretty good, it give challenge to the game and don't let it be finished too fast. If there was a chapter restart the game would be finished in 2 hours.
If you don't want to die on each chapter because you don't know what is waiting for you stop rolling like Sonic and take time to do perfect motion.

[Jonathan_NL]

Easy - Same level
Medium - Same chapter
Hard - The sewer!

[weeble]

Regarding the download, yes, some people will be better located on the internet, have better connections or better timing. I'm simply highlighting that it is a big download that could probably have been kept smaller, and could definitely have been made easier to download. I would have found it impossible to download on the dial-up connection I used to have, and which most of my friends still do.

I've finished it now, and yes, those hell levels were the hardest. Rest assured that I do really like the physics concept, and I'm not posting here to bash the game - I'm trying to provide valid criticism because I want to see it get better. I know this isn't Sonic or Puggsy, and I don't expect the low level of difficulty found in those games.

I enjoy manuevering Gish across the tiny crates hanging from cranes. I enjoy figuring out the puzzles involving blocks and switches. I like figuring out how to use my momentum in those U-shaped pipes on the church level. I like bounding from falling pillar to falling pillar. I like being in the right place doing the right thing at the right time to get the good ending.

I don't enjoy getting killed repeatedly as part of the learning process then being forced to pile those same cubes down that same pipe as last time, just to get back to where I was. I don't enjoy the feeling of lethargy as I try to jump. I don't enjoy losing precious lives because of butterfly effects when an enemy is in just the wrong place, when a rope snaps that wasn't my fault or when Gish simply refuses to crawl from a vertical surface down onto a ceiling. I'm not saying that the game should never kill me, but I want a fair shot to a) see that I'm in danger and b) be able to do something about it.

What would make me happy? Maybe up and down could have a bigger effect on Gish's shape. That way it'd be easier to quickly get the squashing needed to jump. Or perhaps pressing jump when static could squish Gish (anybody ever play Ricochet on the BBC Micro?) and he'd jump when it was released. That would help ensure that enemies at close range were still a threat. Might be messy to implement, but I suppose it's a thought for a sequel.

I'd keep the elaborate puzzles that are high on thinking, low on threat and quite laborious to be just before the boss level. That way you don't need to do the same puzzle you've solved before over and over again, every time you die from the more acrobatics oriented levels.

This one's not even a modification to the game: document the most important feature of being heavy - it makes you far more resistant to being squashed and killed by the various spring-loaded platforms and high-speed U-bends. Perhaps there could also be a marking on the floor - like yellow and black hazard bars, or blood splatters to indicate these potentially dangerous areas, so the player isn't upset when the floor unexpectedly launches him upwards, killing him with the acceleration.

Also, I maintain that there are a number of hazards that you cannot hope to survive the first time you meet them. A number of the areas that spring you up unexpectedly can kill you outright. That room in the church level that completely fills up with the little enemies - I fluked it once by killing them all, but otherwise you really need to charge in and get to where you need to be right away, or you'll die. There's no way to know that first time you get there. Several of the incredible-machine styled contraptions don't allow you to go slowly and cautiously - and if you don't know the hazards coming you're just going to die. This isn't a bad thing in appropriate doses, but it doesn't mix well with fiddly puzzles.

Weeble.

[skweek]

Thanks for the info, guys !
Actually, my first play was in Normal mode, i've redone the game in easy mode and i could finally pass through the hell level :-) . I clearly prefer to play this way since i'm not as patient as some other players ;-)

[Spunior]

I would have found it impossible to download on the dial-up connection I used to have, and which most of my friends still do.

That's why there's an option to have it shipped on CD...

[blob]

k, thx for info.
it sucks thats its the only thing that it does... really...
tskk i thought monsters were gonna be tougher ,more dangerous...
so the challenge is the same but u only have 1 chance in hard ? :/
argh

[dirk1134]

I agree that some of the parts are instant death the first time, and I also think that a major design flaw in the game is that you must restart a chapter... and do EVERYTHING over again. I think that starting the level over is punishment enough.

I disagree that deaths caused by butterfly effect are something they should try to fix: It would be near impossible to do with the physics based nature. That's physics for you. But this fits in with the punishment that you must restart the chapter. The only way i beat the church levels was by sheer luck. I must have played that chapter over 20 times. You shouldn't have to be punished for those times you die with no warning/weren't your fault. You should have to start the level over at most. It shouldn't track lives.

And we all want a level editor ^^

[szer0]

Quote (dirk1134 @ May 28 2004,2:00)

I also think that a major design flaw in the game is that you must restart a chapter... and do EVERYTHING over again. I think that starting the level over is punishment enough.

I was pretty angry at that to, but after restarting a chapter a couple of times i noticed i was getting more skilled everytime. and besides, the game lasts longer that way...

The thing thats bothering me is that the game is to short, atleast without a level editor, this game could get so much more long lasting with a thing like that, i mean even if there wouldent be a network multiplayer mode, there could be a "replay mode" where you can save the last played level or something, there could be world cup in speedrun and things like that.
Anyone remember Elasto Mania? I'ts still played today, just becouse of the level editor and replay function.

[weeble]

Oh, I definitely found that I was getting better at making it throught early levels in a chapter as I kept playing. And this is obviously a game aimed at gamers who remember when all games were like that, with you struggling to complete the entire game having 3 or fewer lives and no continues. The problem is, that by setting up a system where lives are very precious, it becomes very frustrating to lose them randomly. Certain parts of the game (for example, the wrecking-ball at the start of one of the rapture levels, or places where you need to get onto the ceiling above a pit of lave) can easily go terribly wrong because an enemy moves at the wrong time, or Gish has a tiny amount too much or little momentum.

While it is justifiable to lengthen a game by making the player replay segments after dying, you need to strike some kind of balance. Bear in mind that this strongly penalises less skilled players. Say you've got 6 levels in an episode. And suppose a poor player dies about 60% of the time he plays a level, while a better player dies only about 40% of the time he plays a level. The poor player will succeed in completing the episode using 5 lives or less about 17% of the time. That means he'll take on (mean) average between 5 and 6 attempts before he completes the episode. The better player will succeed in completing the episode about 63% of the time. He'll take on average between 1 and 2 attempts. That's a huge difference for only a slight variation in skill level. (I can provide the spreadsheet of this if anybody really wants it.)

In short, the further a player has to go back when killed, the more of a difference his or her skill level makes to progress. In small amounts this ensures that skill is rewarded, in large amounts the game stops being fun for a proportion of players.

[skweek]

I know the thread is old, but i thought i'd add my point of view to it rather than creating a new one .

I gave up Gish in the lava level . It's way too hard for me because of the random deaths Weeble described so well . But don't get me wrong, i've played games at least 2 hours a day for the last 15 years so i'm not a casual gamer and challenge doesn't fright me . The last time i gave up on a game was on Tomb Raider 3, which is an historical example of something developpers should avoid at all cost : heighten the difficulty of their game because they fear the player could find it too short .

To me it's not bad if you can get to the end of a platform game quite easily, as long as you want to replay it to get what you may have missed and what can reward you with secret levels, bonus games, gameplay modes ... Yoshi's island is a good example of well-thought replayability through bonuses to unlock . I finished it at 100% at least two times, believe me you have to spend a few hours ! The game shows a clear track of what the player did and what he missed . Once you've finished a sub-level, it becomes possible to replay it whenever you want to, so if you missed something in the last sub-level of a level, you don't have to get through all the first sub-levels of this levels again just to get the little thing you missed . Also, there are a few checkpoints to avoid redoing the same part of the level over and over .

Actually, Gish could easily be the second platform game on my list if there were less frustration . It's very fun to play with Gish, and the fact that the controls cuts out so much from what we know is clearly the strong point of the game since it's very well implemented . What is not fun is to redo dozens of times the same level without progressing at all . I really hope there will soon be a sequel to Gish and also that the difficulty level will be tuned better !

litst